ISU will change the rule again...?

Why will ISU change the rule again in a short time? What do you think?

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db/files/serve.php?id=1427

1.Jump elements and Throw jumps

1.1 The sign "<" will not be shown to the Judges. They will evaluate the GOE as they see it (without slow motion).

1.2 When establishing the GOE, poor take-off includes cheating at the take-off and putting the full blade on the ice in toe jumps.....

It's an interesting change, that's for sure. The rule change has been addressed in FSU and GS quite extensively, but for the most part I'm all for it. While I personally would have just preferred the UR rule to have been altered in its entirety, the new rule regarding "<" is pretty reasonable.

Since the judges no longer evaluate the jumps on slow motion and without the knowledge that it IS UR, the automatic -GoE is no longer present, and it is possible to salvage a few points despite it being short on rotation.

◆Example: Miki's 3lz-3lp, landed clean but with UR on the 3loop (base value if fully rotated: 11.00)◆
This season: The base value will drop to that of 3lz+2lp, which is 7.50. The combo will then further receive -GoE and end up being worth around 6.3 (or even less).

With the new rules: The base value will still drop to 7.50, but if it satisfies the guidelines for a "good jump" - good flow, extension, height, etc. - it has the potential to earn +GoE and may score over 8 instead.

In that regards, the new rule is a good deal for those who tack the 3loop on their combo (Mao, Miki) and also helps out skaters who can land jumps CLEANLY but is prone to UR them - a good example will be Lysacek's 3A. All in all, this rule change in particular is a step in the right direction, as I was getting tired of a fall/jumps with a botched landing being worth more than a clean and well-executed jump that happened to be UR.

ETA: It appears that a similar remark has been made for spirals: when establishing the GoE, the judges are to mark the quality of the spirals WITHOUT taking into account as to whether each position were held for the required time.

Section II's updated guideline in marking +GoE for elements is leaving me a bit iffy as looking at 8 "checkoffs" for every single element means more time for the judges to deliberate; I can't imagine every single element can possibly be looked at with such scrutiny in a major competition like Worlds where there are numerous competitors (this part in particular is leaving GS posters with doubts). In any case, we can expect the judges to take even longer next season when giving out the scores.

I don't know what to say about rule change #1.2, because I'm not exactly aware of seeing elite skaters using the entire blade instead of their toe pick when they do a toe jump. Or I guess I have a bad eye.

I'll be waiting for what the experts like Oscilla, Okami, z4mboni, inskate etc. have to say on this.

Thank you Clovera for explaining.
So does it mean that Mao's 3A will get more often ratified ? ...I hope so....
I am also worried about the part that says "good jump" - good flow, extension, height.... Mao may not have as much extension as Kim but I hope she gets +GOE.

Anyway, everything seems so complicated to me. I just have to pray for Mao.

ddmm wrote:

Thank you Clovera for explaining.
So does it mean that Mao's 3A will get more often ratified ? ...I hope so....

Not necessarily, but it helps an UR jump from getting further -GoE (the past 2 seasons) as long as it is done well. Prior to this rule change, Mao's clean-but-DG 3A (3A<) will have a base value of 3.50 along with negative GoE resulting in the jump being less than 3 points.

An example of this will be at Nats, where it scored only 2.70 points. With this rule change in effect, theoretically Mao's clean-but-UR 3A will still have a lower base value of 3.50 but has the possibility to get +GoE which can be crucial in a close comptetition.

I won't worry about Mao's jumps, since she does have nice spring and and flow to them. IMO when SOLO jumps are concerned, Yu-Na is in no way "ahead" of Mao by any means - I actually find them to be pretty even save for the fact that Mao has the 3A (Yu-Na has the great lutz, but Mao clearly has the better flip/loop and Yu-Na's salchow is by no means any better than Mao's either).

I've been watching figure skating for a long time but I've never closely examined the scoring systems.

With the points-based new system, can someone explain to me how much the difference is between a 3A vs. the other triple jumps?

Also, how much is a quad vs. the other triple jumps?

To be honest...I think they need to reward the 3A and quads a little more than they have been doing. They add a whole new level to the athletic talents of skaters--I think it's impressive just to be able to do them (especially the 3A for women, and quads for the men) compared to mere combinations of the same ol' things you might expect skaters to do.

For example, a nice triple-triple combination by female skaters is impressive, but it takes a very rare/special ability for a lady to do a 3A. This needs to be rewarded somehow, to give incentive to develop a greater...portfolio...of skills.

Same goes for the guys and quads (with all due respect to the recent Canadian men who have done decently in the tournaments without them, I feel that quad-less programs are missing something, so I agree with the sentiments of Joubert whom I'm not a big fan of, haha.)

I understand now, Clovera, thank you for explaining.

Prettykeys, agree with you. I have always thought that skaters should be more rewarded for taking risks. That's why I love Mao , Joubert and Takahashi. They are so exciting to watch.

I am sick of those people saying "this only for benefit to Mao". Ok, at first they said "Mao don´t have salchow", now she has it and is not important anymore, next "mao do it flutz", and she fixed "she is silly, only lost points" and is not important again, next mao get 3 axel consistent and they said "she prerrote, she underroted", before seems they didn´t see it .

now this of the new rules, this season apparently was ok that yuna get +goes by her 3-3 with ! and nobody said nothing, but now....

sorry my english

chapis wrote:

I am sick of those people saying "this only for benefit to Mao". Ok, at first they said "Mao don´t have salchow", now she has it and is not important anymore, next "mao do it flutz", and she fixed "she is silly, only lost points" and is not important again, next mao get 3 axel consistent and they said "she prerrote, she underroted", before seems they didn´t see it .

now this of the new rules, this season apparently was ok that yuna get +goes by her 3-3 with ! and nobody said nothing, but now....

sorry my english

Those who say all that are mostly either Korean fans obsessed with their nationalistic ideas or just some rabid yunatics, trying to find the reason of their mental immaturity within Mao's jumping skills. Which is strange, of course.
Ignoring - is the best way.

Actually I don't think the new rule is that good for Mao.
As for downgrading, I feel that many judges always downgrade some jumps or give + GOE to some jumps automatically. For example, 3X3L jump is always easy to downgrade. And judges always give high GOE to yuna's 3F3T. And I remember someone in FSU who sit behind judges in LA said that at first judges give +2 to Yuna's 3F3T and then decrease to .X GOE(sorry that I forgot the detailed number) after they receive the technical specialist's edge call. And as to Yuna, I forgot that whether judges must give -GOE to a jump with ! sign or not (I will check that),.if so, then Yuna's 3F3T might have some troubles. if not, no influence to Yuna.

tianrushui wrote:

And as to Yuna, I forgot that whether judges must give -GOE to a jump with ! sign or not (I will check that),.if so, then Yuna's 3F3T might have some troubles. if not, no influence to Yuna.

No, negative GOE is not mandatory for a jump with a ! sign, but it is for a "e" sign.

It seems that the judges will still be shown the !/e calls, even if they don't see the <. I say this based on the negative feedback that this rule change has received in Korea - since the Korean media/some fans are labeling this as a rule to benefit the Japanese skaters. Blah, blah, BLAHHHH...

Mao says she's not going to think about this and practice all her jumps with the goal of landing them properly. That's definitely the attitude I want to see!

Thanks for the clear explanation, clovera. I think if the rules do get changed and benefit Mao and Miki, all the better for our JPN lady skaters. I keep cringing whenever a seemingly good FR jump turns out to be UR and they lose points in the process. I know Mao has been working hard on improving her jumps, though.

Quote :

Those who say all that are mostly either Korean fans obsessed with their nationalistic ideas or just some rabid yunatics, trying to find the reason of their mental immaturity within Mao's jumping skills. Which is strange, of course.

Amen. I'm sick and tired of these Korean Priders® They must really love showing off their inferiority complex to the world when they open their mouths. *sigh*

Quote :

It seems that the judges will still be shown the !/e calls, even if they don't see the <. I say this based on the negative feedback that this rule change has received in Korea - since the Korean media/some fans are labeling this as a rule to benefit the Japanese skaters. Blah, blah, BLAHHHH...

Mao says she's not going to think about this and practice all her jumps with the goal of landing them properly. That's definitely the attitude I want to see!

This is what I love about Mao--she's unflappable! Like water off a duck's back, she ignores all this noise and focuses on the most important thing, that is her skating. Can't wait to see the results of her ballet training, too, after she comes back from Russia.

Heehee, summervie, "yunatics" - I like that

I don't think this will necessarily benefit Mao; only make the competition fairer for her. The main problem with the judging at the 2009 Worlds were the ridiculously high and unsubstantiated GOEs that were dished out like free candy...to everyone EXCEPT for Mao. Mao was the one that suffered the most from the wonky judging going on. The 2008-2009 season is over and done with and I'm sure Mao wants to leave it behind her so I beg pardon from everyone here for bringing it up again, but that finish off the podium probably wouldn't have happened if this rule was in place. I believe in giving credit where credit is due and only if it is due. That wasn't the case at Worlds.

I hope the new rule will give Mao a renewed sense of confidence and instead of worrying about silly under-rotation calls, she can focus on what she does best - being a beautiful and lyrical skater.

So I say 'hooray' to the new rule.

While the new rule might be a slight improvement to what we were seeing last season I was hoping for a different solution, honestly.

Why not simply call the intended triple a triple (unless it's more than 1/2 underrotated) and deduct GOE according to the severity of the underrotation?

Calling an underrotated triple a double with positive GOE makes absolutely no sense to me .

kawaiimao wrote:

While the new rule might be a slight improvement to what we were seeing last season I was hoping for a different solution, honestly.

Why not simply call the intended triple a triple (unless it's more than 1/2 underrotated) and deduct GOE according to the severity of the underrotation?

Calling an underrotated triple a double with positive GOE makes absolutely no sense to me .

Yeah, this puzzled me too. I agree with your recommendation sounds more intelligent and ethical.

kawaiimao wrote:

While the new rule might be a slight improvement to what we were seeing last season I was hoping for a different solution, honestly.

Why not simply call the intended triple a triple (unless it's more than 1/2 underrotated) and deduct GOE according to the severity of the underrotation?

Calling an underrotated triple a double with positive GOE makes absolutely no sense to me .

I agree with you too.

I think it would be better if they called the jump underrotated, and required mandatory deductions, but not reduce the base value of the jump.

I don't really have a strong opinion, but I do kinda think that having the limit for underrotation at 1/4 turn might be good...otherwise a double axel would be equivalent to one of the other triple jumps!

chineseteacup wrote:

The main problem with the judging at the 2009 Worlds were the ridiculously high and unsubstantiated GOEs that were dished out like free candy...to everyone EXCEPT for Mao. Mao was the one that suffered the most from the wonky judging going on.

I understand your point. As for the case of worlds, the judges considered that Mao was actually rescued in the SP by ratifying the underrotated 3-3.

To zooma:

I agree with what you said and would like to add that Mao's spiral sequence was severely undermarked as well. There's definitely a problem with the speed at which Mao does her spirals, but the difference between the quality of Mao's spirals and Yu-Na's did not warrant that much of a difference in the GOEs.

chineseteacup wrote:

To zooma:

I agree with what you said and would like to add that Mao's spiral sequence was severely undermarked as well. There's definitely a problem with the speed at which Mao does her spirals, but the difference between the quality of Mao's spirals and Yu-Na's did not warrant that much of a difference in the GOEs.

I think the reason why Mao has less speed is because she starts with the spiral with no edge change, so when it comes to the changed edge spiral, she can only do 1 or 2 crossover to gain her speed for this, longer, spiral.

Thanks for the insight, bibi! It's hard to know these things when I'm not a skater myself.

I wonder if changing her spiral positions would help Mao to increase her speed. I've noticed that she always holds onto her other leg. Is that a variation of the arabesque spiral, or something different altogether? Maybe if she just does the standard arabesque one, she'll go faster?

bibi wrote:

I think the reason why Mao has less speed is because she starts with the spiral with no edge change, so when it comes to the changed edge spiral, she can only do 1 or 2 crossover to gain her speed for this, longer, spiral.

Good insight bibi! That actually makes sense, since the vast majority of female skaters begin their spiral sequence with their long position/change edge variation first..and since Mao has always been the buttery type of basic skater (a la Shizuka) who generally try to do as little crossovers as possible, this certainly explains why Mao's SS appear slow when compared to some of her top competitors.

chineseteacup: Mao's "catch thigh" - as I like to call it - is a required variation/difficult position for the change edge spiral, so that's pretty much a yes. I may be incorrect (bibi and other posters who skate, feel free to confirm this!), but I would think controlling the edge and maintaining speed/balance for that position is in no way more challenging than the standard catchfoot/Biellmann spiral position, if not easier.

To clovera:

I think you may have just invented a new spiral with that your "catch thigh" terminology Although, it looks harder than the Biellman spiral position and the standard Arabesque position, because you're almost doing a Charlotte, but with your upper body closer to your free foot than the one on the ice. And whereas the teardrop shape of the Biellman seems to help with the balance, Mao's "catch thigh" doesn't really have the best centre of gravity.

Of course, this is just speculation from a person who knows nothing about skating herself, so don't take my word for it. I reckon that since Mao isn't benefitting from the spirals that she has, maybe it's time to exchange difficulty of positions for speed.

chineseteacup wrote:

Of course, this is just speculation from a person who knows nothing about skating herself, so don't take my word for it. I reckon that since Mao isn't benefitting from the spirals that she has, maybe it's time to exchange difficulty of positions for speed.

I'm torn here.

After Worlds, where I saw firsthand how slow Mao's spirals can be compared to the others, I definitely thought she needed to work on speed.

However, when I watch the WTT SP, she seems to have quite a bit of speed (though perhaps not too much ice coverage). Her spiral in the WTT LP does not look as fast.

BUT, Mao's positions are to die for!!! Her first position where she leans back - she's practically the only one who does that! And her catch-foot Biellman is one of the best!

So I think, as long as she can consistently get Level4's and high GOE's like she did in the WTT SP, there's no need to change anything...