The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010

Here's a couple of quite interesting quotes from an NTV+ commentator Vasiliy Soloviev (the man who usually comments together with TAT) taken from his personal website (http://www.solovieff.ru/).

(Someone asks him if TAT thinks that Rochette is overscored by judges, because it seems that Tatiana usually talks about Rochette somewhat reservedly.)
- "It seems to me Tatiana Anatolievna does this intentionally, because sport-wise it's unpleasant for her that in the end everything will come down to some backstage games and judging issues. I always feel that Tarasova tries to beat everyone along the sport line, so that no judge could rise a hand on any of her students. I don't believe that so many victories came to her as the result of intrigues. She herself usually talks very sceptically about intriguers (won't tell about whom exactly): '[He/she] works with judges - [he/she] won't be great!'"

(From his blog post about if Mao really underrotated her 3F in the 3F-2L combo at the WTT's Free Skate.)
- "...During the replay it may be seen (at least for me) that Mao underrotated not more than a quarter of a turn.
It should be said that judges also have a slow motion replay, therefore basically they saw the same as we, just from somewhat another angle. We could assume that jumps are many while technical panel consists of just three people, and their eyes got blurred. But that would be a bad excuse, since there's no more interesting confrontation in the world right now than the one of Asada - Kim. It could be compared with the greatest duels of figure skating, including the one between Yagudin and Plushenko. That's why I'm sure the judges thought over Mao's skate very carefully, as well as over every of her jumps.
Considering the fact that the competition was held in Japan, to put Mao an underrotation - this should've been a strong, resolute and well thought out decision. Thus, one either should've been sure that it was really a serious underrotation, or guided by some other motives. Among which could be certain undercover games between federations or between coaches. Given the fact that due to this underrotation Mao Asada lost to Yu-na Kim again (even though not directly), this judges' decision about the flip could have had a very important strategic meaning".
Then he says that this is just an assumption and asks his readers to express their own opinion on the matter. While (by his words) TAT herself was sincerely surprised when they issued an underrotation to Mao there.

Back on his forum he touches several times the topic about how federations and coaches relentlessly struggle with each other, and how much depends on this struggle, while results of the competitions less and less depend on actual skating.

I want to believe that in Vacouver will be a fair judged, but in fact if I was an isu official and I must benefit to someone, I should chose to yuna "to benefit the sport" .

may be the judges just are bored and tired, may be they don´t put too atention to judge, like we all (obssesive fans) do it .

Like TAT always says - you should be on a head above to win. Remember 2002 Olympics, Lesha skated like a God, there were no questions about olympic gold. So, it's time for Mao to show all the people who she really is

chapis wrote:

I want to believe that in Vacouver will be a fair judged

I want to believe that tomorrow in the morning we will wake up in the peaceful world without wars, racism, ultra-nationalism and stupidity.

chapis wrote:

but in fact if I was an isu official and I must benefit to someone, I should chose to yuna "to benefit the sport" .

See, it's a very easy way to go. The president of ISU, while issuing some, mmm, judging guidelines, might say: "I don't benefit myself, I benefit the sport. AND myself". The same with a corrupted judge: he/she benefits the sport (while in fact through such actions he/she only spoils its very core) in the first place, all personal benefits go just like some pleasant bonus.

Maybe ISU should just spend all its available resourses on secret development of some genetically-enchanted super-skater, then to issue to him (but better - to her) a Chinese citizenship, and then "benefit the sport" until all of the 1.3 billions of Chinese population become devoted to figure skating? Then to switch towards India. Then - Brazil and Nigeria. Wouldn't it be cool? Why to bother about some fairness at all?

polosatik wrote:

Like TAT always says - you should be on a head above to win. Remember 2002 Olympics, Lesha skated like a God, there were no questions about olympic gold. So, it's time for Mao to show all the people who she really is

Ну да, это как в той песне: "Гни свою линию, горят огни, сверкают звезды, все так сложно, все так просто". Но не все же себе могут позволить быть, как Леша. В общем, это так себе выход. -P

summervie wrote:

polosatik wrote:

Like TAT always says - you should be on a head above to win. Remember 2002 Olympics, Lesha skated like a God, there were no questions about olympic gold. So, it's time for Mao to show all the people who she really is

Íó äà, ýòî êàê â òîé ïåñíå: "Ãíè ñâîþ ëèíèþ, ãîðÿò îãíè, ñâåðêàþò çâåçäû, âñå òàê ñëîæíî, âñå òàê ïðîñòî". Íî íå âñå æå ñåáå ìîãóò ïîçâîëèòü áûòü, êàê Ëåøà. Â îáùåì, ýòî òàê ñåáå âûõîä. -P

Ìàî ìîæåò ïîçâîëèòü!

Interesting topic. I think anyone who followed the sport for quite some time are more than aware that there are "backdoor" transactions happening on some level whether we like to admit it or not (Sonia Bianchetti's autobio makes this especially apparent) - and they don't necessarily have to be SLC-level scandals either.

That said, the cynic in me has some doubts about whether a "Yu-Na wins OGM situation" will equal continued interest in the sport in South Korea - not that I'll know, since I have very little knowledge of their culture. It will definitely create a flurry of excitement, yes, but the fact of the matter is that the Korean federation still isn't exactly the most organized (or funded) in its FS division - it still lags severely behind speed skating - and the bulk of the new rinks and whatnot are also factored in by the fact that Yu-Na has commercial appeal and marketability; indeed, its been the work of sponsors.

Sports journalists with minimum knowledge of the sport can talk about Japan being a "new skating power" all they want, but the fact of the matter is that skating in Japan didn't start under Midori Ito. The Japanese Fed has a long history and its interest in developing athletes began around the 70's with the Kozuka family, Emi Watanabe, and Minoru Sano. Midori's impact did begin the Nobeyama camp and the JSF system of keeping tabs on upcoming talent, which in turn lead to the successes of Shizuka, and virtually all the Japanese skaters in competition today.

As a country without a history in FS like that of the US, the Korean Skating Union will require further organization and planning to keep the sport alive, and I just can't picture that happening as of the present because skating is currently treated as a "fad" in that nation, rather than a viable pasttime and interest like baseball, table tennis, or soccer. There's not enough NATIVE coaches or experts of FS in Korea (the foundation for the sport just isn't there), let alone skating teachers, which severely limits potential athletes even if skating rinks in Korea are running rampant with kids thanks to the media exposure.

Of course, on the short term it's going to be a business opportunity I'm sure Speedy and his goons at ISU will love to milk out, but I personally don't see it as an actual opportunity for skating to develop in Korea. If Yu-Na does theoretically win, it'll create a plateau of skating fever but I see it sinking back to obscurity just as easily, because the Sochi cycle will no longer see a Korean skater in the top ranks.

We'll probably just have to wait until next season begins, but I'm quite fine with Mao no longer being the top contender in Vancouver (at least in the eyes of the Korean media and Western journalists).

polosatik wrote:

Мао может позволить!

Мао, конечно, может. Но что делать, ну вот например, фигуристке Саре Мэйер? Ждет Сара своего проката, размялась, нервничает, и тут ей, представь, Ламбьель с трибуны пишет: "Извини, Сара, мы тут вчера с парнями пустили всю ежемесячную десятину ИСУ на пиво и сосиски (ну или там, на глазированные сырки, если дело происходит с девченками, а не парнями), так что придется тебе кататься like Lesha, чтобы ни у кого как бы не возникло сомнений о том, кто здесь главный (ЛОЛ)". И Сару так торжественно задвигают на 27-е место.
То есть, понимаешь, это все-таки не выход.

summervie wrote:

polosatik wrote:

Ìàî ìîæåò ïîçâîëèòü!

Ìàî, êîíå÷íî, ìîæåò. Íî ÷òî äåëàòü, íó âîò íàïðèìåð, ôèãóðèñòêå Ñàðå Ìýéåð? Æäåò Ñàðà ñâîåãî ïðîêàòà, ðàçìÿëàñü, íåðâíè÷àåò, è òóò åé, ïðåäñòàâü, Ëàìáüåëü ñ òðèáóíû ïèøåò: "Èçâèíè, Ñàðà, ìû òóò â÷åðà ñ ïàðíÿìè ïóñòèëè âñþ åæåìåñÿ÷íóþ äåñÿòèíó ÈÑÓ íà ïèâî è ñîñèñêè (íó èëè òàì, íà ãëàçèðîâàííûå ñûðêè, åñëè äåëî ïðîèñõîäèò ñ äåâ÷åíêàìè, à íå ïàðíÿìè), òàê ÷òî ïðèäåòñÿ òåáå êàòàòüñÿ like Lesha, ÷òîáû íè ó êîãî êàê áû íå âîçíèêëî ñîìíåíèé î òîì, êòî çäåñü ãëàâíûé (ËÎË)". È Ñàðó òàê òîðæåñòâåííî çàäâèãàþò íà 27-å ìåñòî.
Òî åñòü, ïîíèìàåøü, ýòî âñå-òàêè íå âûõîä.

Ýòî âñå ðåàëüíîñòü ñïîðòà, åñëè òâîÿ ôåäåðàöèÿ íå èìååò ñèëû â ôê òî çàäâèíóò òåáÿ íà 27 ìåñòî.

clovera wrote:

We'll probably just have to wait until next season begins, but I'm quite fine with Mao no longer being the top contender in Vancouver (at least in the eyes of the Korean media and Western journalists).

i'm fine with this too as it seems it takes some pressure off mao...

summervie wrote:

If the Japanese federation doesn't affect this theoretical situation, I think it would be just much more profitable for ISU to let Yu-na win, choosing from the two. Non?

Thank you very much for the translation, summervie!

This is a very interesting topic, but I agree with clovera, and I doubt that Yu-Na winning gold medal will keep Korea interested in the sport. Surely, there will be interest in Yu-Na Kim, and any skating shows she does, and whatever she does, period, but I think as soon as she leaves competitive skating, the Koreans will lose interest in the competitions. Under that scenario, I would guess that the KSU stops volunteering to host competitions, and the Korean companies stop sponsoring the ISU.

Actually, I would argue that if profit were the ISU's main concern, that it might make more sense to favor Mao. Why? Well, the Mao/Yu-Na rivalry is one of the major selling points for the sport right now, and BOTH of them attract a lot of sponsors for the sport.

However, we know that Mao will continue in skating no matter what happens in Vancouver, whereas Yu-Na will probably move on to other things if she gets the gold. So if Yu-Na gets the gold, you lose the rivalry, and you probably lose the Korean sponsors, whereas if Mao gets the gold, Yu-Na will probably stick around to have her shot at the gold.

Well, that's what I think.

HOWEVER, if we continue along this line of reasoning, then you could argue that it makes even more sense to give the gold to a Canadian or an American - someone from a country where figure skating has historically been very popular but is waning in popularity right now. In that scenario, Mao and Yu-Na probably would keep competing (so you keep the rivalry and the sponsors) AND you can probably generate renewed interest in a new major market like USA or Canada.

So I don't know, I guess it could go any way.

I have to agree, though, that I was surprised that Mao's 3F in the 3F-2Lo got downgraded. If I start getting the feeling that the judges are unfairly holding up the other skaters, I might have to stop watching, because it will be too upsetting. That's how I felt after Worlds, but the scoring of Mao's WTT SP did give me renewed hope...

GO MAO! JUST SHOW THEM EVERYTHING YOU'VE GOT!!!
I guess that's all I can hope for!!

(And part of me feels like, even in the hypothetical situation of Mao not winning the gold, if she is able to win the audience's heart with her genuine, heartfelt smile and her delightful personality, so that the millions of people out there just adore her like I do - in that case, I might feel almost as happy. )

Yes, her theoretical win wouldn't make Korea the center of the figure skating universe, but if hordes of kids will rush towards ice rinks, I guess this fact alone would be sufficient to expect the discovery of new yunakims in the nearest future (and Korean federation, disorganized or not, would probably find some way for those talents to be normally coached).
If Yu-na wins the Games, considering all the factors (the socio-cultural one among others), I guess she simply might become one of the most idolized athletes in the history of sports (with all following consequences). I don't see how her possible OGM impact can be compared with the possible impact of some Canadian or US skater winning the Olympics. (Unless Obama will start practicing donut spin tomorrow, of course.) Who's Lysacek for the US? Some another guy with some another gold on his neck. Who is Rochette for Canada? Who is Kim for Korea?.. Around a year ago I asked one Korean girl who wasn't a fan of skating in no way if she knew who Yu-na Kim is. She answered: "Of course I do, we call her the younger sister of our nation".
Batsuchan, whoever wins whatever, I'm afraid the next season will be the last one for us to witness this great rivalry. I guess Yu-na has much more interesting and relaxing things to do than some competitive skating (not that there is something wrong about this fact). You know, apparently there are two different types of skaters: those who love themselves within figure skating, and those who love figure skating within themselves (try to feel the difference). I guess Yu-na, like many and many others, is the first type. (Am I too 'romantizing' this issue?)

summervie wrote:

Considering the fact that the competition was held in Japan, to put Mao an underrotation - this should've been a strong, resolute and well thought out decision.

I guess they have "readjusted" on that part. Because Mao's SP score was way too high. The final score seems about right to me.

Quote :

Why it might be good for ISU if Yu-na wins the OGM and Mao doesn't? Let's try to have a look.

If Kim wins the Olympics and retires, popularity of FS in south Korea will diminish quickly and the ISU loses an important income source. The Koreans are not interested in the sport itself but athletes who can glorify their nation. The ISU has no reasons to push Kim by any means. The case of LA worlds is different. They needed to give Kim same titles as Mao to make the rivalry more intense (and make money).

summervie wrote:

If Yu-na wins the Games, considering all the factors (the socio-cultural one among others), I guess she simply might become one of the most idolized athletes in the history of sports (with all following consequences). I don't see how her possible OGM impact can be compared with the possible impact of some Canadian or US skater winning the Olympics.

I think she already IS one of the most idolized athletes in the history of sports - she's already the queen of CM's in Korea.

But that's exactly it - all the attention is on Yu-Na Kim the Star, not figure skating. That's why I think Korea's interest in watching skating competitions on TV will wane until the next of batch of Yu-Na Kim-inspired kids grow up and hit the world stage.

That's sort of what's going on in the US right now, in my opinion. Interest in watching skating competitions - zero. Interest in seeing Michelle Kwan performing in an ice show = sold-out.

summervie wrote:

You know, apparently there are two different types of skaters: those who love themselves within figure skating, and those who love figure skating within themselves (try to feel the difference).

Wow, that is an amazing quote, summervie!!

When you have a skater like Yu-Na Kim, it's hard to actually point out the bias in the judging, because Yu-Na does skate well and did deserve her win at the 2009 Worlds. So, if she gives two perfect programs at Vancouver and Mao makes perhaps only one mistake (but skates with more artistry and has better programs), no one can say anything. I guess we can only hope that Mao delivers perfect programs next year, so the judges would be FORCED to give the gold to her. It sounds bad, but that may be the case.

And as to the point of judges awarding Yu-Na the gold in order to please the Korean fans - that certainly is one possibility. Can you imagine the backlash from those hooligans on youtube and Yu-Na Kim forums if Mao were to win? Then again, I think we as Mao fans will make just as big a noise if the victory if not awarded to Mao, if she indeed skates programs deserving of the gold medal.

zooma wrote:

I guess they have "readjusted" on that part. Because Mao's SP score was way too high. The final score seems about right to me.

How was it way too high considering what Yu-Na got at Worlds?

kawaiimao wrote:

zooma wrote:

I guess they have "readjusted" on that part. Because Mao's SP score was way too high. The final score seems about right to me.

How was it way too high considering what Yu-Na got at Worlds?

I think Mao's TES is more outrageous than Kim's. No merit to compare different competitions though, the proportion of inflation is close to a Canadian man at 4CC.

The main reason is LV4 steps. IMO this is a direct tool of favoritism designed to boost favorites' scores. The only other female skater given LV4 on steps was Kostner at 2007 NHK trophy FS. The Mexican TS seems to be pretty much obliged to make Kostner to GPF in her home town, with or without an explicit order from the ISU president.

Reading this topic makes me kinda confused!

Im a newbie in the skating world and have some problems in understanding the rules, but if you say the judges works to have Kim always in front, it shocks me! But im always positive thinking

I want Kim and Asada both on the Olympic Podeum, in 1st and 2nd, of course, but who is where i dont care
If then Daisuke Takahashi got medal, im the happiest girl in the world

And it makes me sad, if one of the two will retire after the Olympics, i also heard, that Takahashi will too

Thank you summervie for your translations and sharing!! Just a few points that I'd like to share with you all too.

The judging at worlds was pretty screwed up in general across all divisions. Ice dance is a disaster. The ladies did better though. Although the PCS are still a mystery to many people but at least, the judges got the podium ranking right IMO.

I have no problem with Rochette ranking 2nd. She did well enough in her SP to hang onto 2nd place when Mao stumbles in the FS. Her transitions, edge work, choreography are also all very very well executed. Miki has the jumps but Rochette, IMO, definitely bested her in the PCS. (Just my humble opinion ) So, in terms of placement, there is no clear evidence for me in this competition to suggest that politics is in play to hold up Canadian skaters' scores.

No doubt that there may always be judges who come into competitions with personal / federation agendas. As a fan of the sport, I notice some controversial judging now and then, but I'd say every skater has suffered their own share of unfair judging.

In vancouver, politics or not, everything is provided for the canadian skaters to perform their best. They will definitely take advantage of the fact that the Olys is held at their own country. They can spend less time to adjust to the time zone and the arena; gives them more time to focus on bringing up their performance level. They will have full home support and great cheers from the audience. Some skaters find these advantages a source of pressure, but Rochette strikes me as an athlete who gains strength from them instead. Yuna, who trains at Toronto (edited) will also share the similar home advantage for similar reasons. There is a great S.Korean community in Vancouver and I'm sure that they will spare no effort to support their "young sister of the nation".

Soooo, despite what ISU has on their agenda (IF they really have any at all), Yuna and Rochette will still be in a better position to perform well at the OLYS than Mao for the reasons above. However, at the moment, without any understanding of what programs they will perform next season, or any information on their condition, we can never know for sure.

As for Mao, instead of an OGM, I am honestly hoping first and foremost for a performance that showcases her joy and sense of freedom on ice - A tremendous 4-min-ride that takes me deep into what figure skating means to Mao; a performance which leaves no regrets. Politics/hidden agendas may be able to manipulate the overall result but they could never stop Mao from giving out a skate of her life.

Yuna trains in Toronto, not Vancouver.

tianrushui wrote:

Yuna trains in Toronto, not Vancouver.

Thanks, tianrushui, I had a nagging doubt when I typed in "Vancouver"...

I hope Mao could have two gorgeous programs and OGM next season. If I could only have to choose one, I still choose OGM>< I can't bear the possibility that Mao might retire without an OGM. Yes, I know that OGM is not the only thing to estimate the achievement of a skater. And whether with or without that medal, Mao is still the unique one in many people's heart. But, that is her dream since she was very young. When I saw a young Mao expressed her dream for Vancouver, for that Gold Medal in fluffs, I always felt a little bit sad and can't help thinking how disappointed she would be if she can't get that medal in 2010. Yes, I know that Mao said that even she can't win that medal, she will head for Sochi. But, who knows what will happen four years later, perhaps Mao might be forced to retire because of injury, or some more talented skaters will defeat Mao. No matter what, that OGM is still Mao's dream, I hope all her dreams could come true. And another reason why I desperately want Mao to have that medal is that I always have a feeling that currently, due to the pressure of competition, sometimes Mao can't totally devote herself to the performance(I mean, she pays much attention to the technical part, and sometimes disconnected to her program), if she could have that medal, then she could put all the pressure off and pay all attention to program and give us better performance. I feel that Mao still has many potential in performance.
Anyway, I wish Mao good luck and does her best in next season.

This problem with the judges, that they work unfair sometimes...

It was happen to Yukari Nakano in the FS of 2008 Worlds, wasnt it? Everyone thought, she would get medal ~~

^Haidogirl, I like your avatar!

I really wish Mao would get the OGM. But I also acknowledge that Yuna might get it depending on how they let all the pressure affect them from now on and how they perform during the games. A gold or not a gold -- more than winning, I want Mao to skate the best skate of her life. Mao skating with all her heart, one which shows everyone why she loves skating. When she does, I'm sure she'll be breathtaking and she'd have skated to perfection.

I have to admit that I sometimes daydream that during the olympics Mao will skate last and everyone else has skated beautifully adding more pressure to her. Then when she goes to the center of the rink she leaves all her inhibitions behind and give a very breathtaking performance. One which we have not seen before and do not expect Mao will be able to perform and then she skates perfect and leave no one to doubt whom the gold belongs... Ah, i'm really hoping that happens.

Haidogirl wrote:

This problem with the judges, that they work unfair sometimes...

It was happen to Yukari Nakano in the FS of 2008 Worlds, wasnt it? Everyone thought, she would get medal ~~

I don't think that was the problem of the judges being unfair. If you look at the PCS and GoEs for all the elements (except for downgraded jumps) the judges actually gave Yukari the second highest scores (behind Mao). I think it's safe to say that had the competition been judged under 6.0, Yukari would have placed at least second in the free skate and probably overall.

What hurt Yukari was the double penalty on underrotated jumps. I think it was certainly one of the factors that caused the ISU officials to rethink this issue and introduce a rule change in the Olympic season. Dick Button certainly was very outspoken on how it is unfair that a performance with rotated, but poorly landed triples (with a hand(s) down, a step-out, or a fall) was worth so much more than a seemingly clean performance, but with an underrotation or a few. He said that poorly landed triple, just like an underrotated one, shows lack of control on the landing/poor timing.

What worries me is the limited amount of judges in the Olympics. I didn't have much time this season to closely analyze the scoresheets, but looking at the men's scores at WTT made me realize just how important the number of judges can really be, and how easily could just a few judges manipulate the final score.

In the LP especially the scores were all over the place. There were a few judges who visibly tried to judge the event fairly, distributing good PCS scores in SS, PE, etc. to Nobunari and Brian, while giving the nod to Chan for TR and CH, despite his rather poor showing. There was a judge or two who had Chan behind Nobu and Brain. The last two judges (and, to a lesser extent, another one who was a bit less obvious, but not much so), however, gave extremely high PCS to Patrick, while "gifting" Brian and Nobu with scores more appropriate for a junior skater who stumbled his way through his program with a few mistakes here and there.

Now, the scoring process goes this way: the highest and the lowest scores are thrown out, then a few scores are randomly selected and averaged.

This was supposed to discourage judges from cheating or accepting bribes, because the judges were supposed not to be certain if their scores will even count. The anonymity of the judges and the random selection was supposed to discourage the people involved from putting the pressure on the judges to try and influence the final result.

The judges from WTT demonstrated an easy way around that. It's enough if 2-3 judges on the panel will be careful to give very high PCS/GoEs to their "favourite", while remembering to underscore his/her main competitors. This will severely influence the final result. The very lowest/highest scores will not be taken into account, but the other judges' (or two... or three...) scores will count. Even if the rest of the judges will score the event fairly, those few 'generous' judges can easily create a gap between their 'favourite' and the rest of the field.

Since PCS/GoEs are awarded on a very highly subjective basis, it is unlikely that they will be punished in any way.

This is what worries me the most. Because if all the scores were at least in the same range, I could explain the difference in the scores by the 'favourite' skater just working the CoP better (even if reading all the ISU documents does not particularly enlighten me about what the judges are really looking for), but if I look at the scoresheet and see the scores all over the place, it makes me feel rather disheartened. It leads me to conclusion that:

1. The judges don't get CoP, either.
2. ...or they are too lazy to even read the CoP book.
3. The events are really judged by a pack of trained monkeys from a nearby Zoo.
...and the saddest option:
4. The judges are not exactly impartial.

...Oh, this turned into such a long post. And I don't even feel I'm done yet. I'll finish some other time, as I'm afraid this post has turned out so long that nobody will even read it.