Mao's strategy going forward?

Well, this is sort of related to the Grand Prix Final, but only a little bit, so I decided to start a new thread.

I think Mao really wanted to win the Grand Prix Final (and I'm so glad she did! ), but I think her real goal is the gold medal at the 2010 Olympics, which makes me think she isn't too concerned about how she does in the competitions between now and then.

Instead, it seems like she wants to focus on doing harder and harder things.

In the middle of this clip (3:12), TAT says that "The most important thing to do is develop one's skill without fearing failure. The reason why is because if you want to stay on top, you have to continue to progress."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utC2vGMxqHA

At 4:21, some guy asks Midori Ito, "Is Mao Asada's [program] complete?"

Midori: No no no not yet! She will add two types of triple-triple jumps, and she's doing her triple axels in the first half of her program. If she does them in the second half, the points will increase by 1.1x, so her score will get higher. If she brings together that physical condition and motivation, naturally [good] results will come out. I want to see a skate that is much, much more like Mao-chan!"

Oh, I love Midori! She seems so excited for Mao!

I never considered Mao doing a 3A in the second half of her program, but I guess it is another possibility! Exciting!

This clip was very positive, but some other clips I have seen and news articles I have read have been pretty critical of Mao.

In this clip, for example, they make a big deal out of the fact that if Yu-Na had only one mistake in the long program instead of two, she would have won. They also emphasize Yu-Na Kim's speed, and the fact that she won on expres​sion(program components).
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=yACR8Q52wE0

At the end of this article, Midori Ito is quoted as saying "When you watch Yu-Na Kim skate live, her speed and force are amazing. Dynamic! She jumps and turns with such speed!" Then Midori basically suggests that Mao needs to work on her speed and force.
http://www.j-cast.com/tv/2008/12/15032184.html

This criticism, that Mao needs to work on her speed, force and expression, was echoed in quite a few articles.

Although I personally think Mao's expression is wonderful, she has been criticized on this point before, so I can understand the media pointing that out. And she was certainly not as engaged in her programs as at NHK Trophy (but since the audience was pretty subdued, I don't really blame her).

But I'm not so sure about the speed/force thing. I'm just a beginner skater, and I haven't seen a competition live, so I'm wondering, is speed that important?

This reminded me of a very interesting analysis clip that Shizuka Arakawa did in January 2007. Basically she was comparing Mao and Yu-Na's jump technique. She said that Yu-Na has "distance jumps" while Mao has "high jumps." Yu-Na jumps at top speed and she covers a lot of distance, while Mao uses timing to generate height. The downside of Yu-Na's technique is that in the second half of the program, when you're tired, it's hard to jump, whereas the downside of Mao's technique is that if your timing gets off by even a little bit, you can't jump well.

So that makes me think that jumping at high speed isn't really Mao's style. And it seems to me (but I don't really know anything), that Mao has better stamina, that Mao can do so many hard jumps in the second half of her program because it doesn't require that much force from her. Her triple axels certainly look powerful, but what I love about her other jumps is that they just seem effortless and light! She's a souffle!!

And that seems to be a good thing, because so far, Mao hasn't gotten seriously injured like Yu-Na, and I hope it stays that way.

So what do you guys think?

I definitely think that Mao should go for it, take risks, try all kinds of difficult jump layouts. I was so happy and so proud of her for winning the GPF in Korea, I almost don't mind if she doesn't win Worlds as long as she keeps progressing! Right now is the time to make mistakes so that she can be unbeatable by the Olympics!

But I'm not really sure that Mao should try to be a speed demon like Yu-Na, unless her PCs start falling far far behind.

Well, this turned out to be quite a long post. Let me know what you think!

Batsuchan wrote:

I think Mao really wanted to win the Grand Prix Final (and I'm so glad she did! ), but I think her real goal is the gold medal at the 2010 Olympics, which makes me think she isn't too concerned about how she does in the competitions between now and then.

Instead, it seems like she wants to focus on doing harder and harder things.

I agree with you, but I don't want Mao to forget why she does this. It's because of skating, she loves to skate. I also think it is important to do every competition properly and enjoy the path to the 2010 olympics.

Good luck Mao!!!

I don't think that speed is such a big deal... Because the most speedy skater Carolina said that it really bothers her sometimes. And Yu-Na have speed mostly on her jumps but not on spins and on footwork sequences It's so great that Yu-Na and Mao are so different, of course they have some weaknesses and trying to work on them Although PCs falling worries me

Batsuchan wrote:

But I'm not so sure about the speed/force thing. I'm just a beginner skater, and I haven't seen a competition live, so I'm wondering, is speed that important?

Speed is definitely important in figure skating. From the judges viewpoint, the speed is a visible proof of the depth of the edges and the skating skills. From the viewers' standpoint, greater speed makes the skating way more exciting. I've seen a few competitions/practices live (sadly, none with Mao ), and I was just floored at how much difference great edges and great speed make.

However, I don't think that Mao has to worry about not having enough speed. On the contrary, she improved tremendously in the off-season. There was one area that she needed to improve in, and that was the speed and the depth of the edge in the spiral sequence. It became much better, and so did her stroking.

It's true that YuNa enters jumps with higher speed than Mao (except for Mao's 2A and 3A which she also approaches with great speed), but I don't really think Mao should copy YuNa in that ability... I have a strong suspicion that should Mao try that, she would have lost her 3L combo. You don't see the male skaters (except Nobu and Kevin) or YuNa try it - she doesn't even do 2L as a second jump in a combo. She prefers to do 3Lz-2T-2L, using 2T to slow down a bit and get the timing right for the double loop.
Mao's jumps look good enough as they are now - high and light, with a soft landing. The additional wow factor of more ice coverage isn't, IMHO, worthy losing combos ending in 3L and 2L-2L.

As for the speed in the programs... I actually rewatched Mao's and YuNa's LPs right now and I don't think there is any huge difference. Initially I thought that maybe Mao looses more speed because of the dance-like nature of her program - more changes of direction, Waltz-like structure, more busy choreo. However, when I muted the music and watched the videos side-by-side, I noticed that actually it's YuNa's program that has more slow parts. It's Mao's program that builds and builds, without any rest. The only awkward moment for me is 2A following 3T late in the program, entered without much speed. The step sequence might seem a little slower as well in terms of covering the ice, but the movements itself are much faster. I think the judges appreciated it as well, as Mao got GoE twice as high as YuNa.

I wouldn't worry about PCS. They are still quite high. We'll have to see how will they look like on "neutral ground", without judges being influenced by the fans roaring for one skater, and sitting on their hands for another.

Oops, how late it is! I need to get up early tomorrow, so I need to go to sleep now... I'll finish this post tomorrow.

Gah, it's bedtime so I'll have to post more tomorrow, but I just wanted to add one more thing to get your comments on.

So I have mixed feelings about the Japanese media criticizing Mao and saying that Yu-Na is better than Mao...

On one hand, I feel bad for Mao that the media is criticizing her even though she won the GPF and managed to do triple axels! And I was annoyed that they said that if Yu-Na had only one mistake, she would have won, because that's an overly simplistic analysis, in my opinion.

On the other hand, I think it's good that the media doesn't portray Mao as perfect and unbeatable, because that would even more pressure on Mao and would probably provoke a nasty backlash if she did poorly (kind of like TEB, I guess).

Also - let's not forget what TAT said about the journalists having nothing to write about if Mao does fine. I do think that part of the reason why these types of articles and news clips take a critical stance is because that gets more readers/viewers...

What do you guys think?

Well, the media will always criticize someone, or something since they have nothing better to do. As silly as it may sound, the U.S. media (especially individuals like Phil Hersh) has even nitpicked about Michelle's performances. And now that she is understood to be retired from competitive skating, Hersh has now decided to nitpick about the "lack" of American skating success in addition to the continual doom and gloom of CoP skating...despite Abbott and Johnny medaling at the GPF, or the junior ranks being overrun by U.S. skaters.

Now, about the clip criticizing Mao by Tokudane. That was completely out of line, IMO. Once again, no mention is made to the UR call in the SP, and Yoshie Onda actually had the nerve to say on public TV that Mao's skating is childlike - to which the commentators who know nothing about skating with concur to. One of them goes so far as to say Mao isn't balletic, and that Yu-Na shows more balletic qualities! He then goes on to an idiotic charade about Mao's costumes being far less mature to Yu-Na etc. that I had a hard time controlling myself. If they said that in front of Tat, they would've gotten a handful. Needless to say a lot of unsatisfied viewers must have notified the producers and complained, because...
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Surprise surprise! The same morning news program that said "if Yu-Na was perfect she will win" actually gave a public apology saying they overlooked Mao's planned 3fl-3lo in the FS and that they were mistaken about the calculations. The host then gives a very pathetic excuse of "we aren't the experts so we didn't know" despite planned elements being accessible to the public for several days before giving another apology to Mao.

At least other broadcast stations like TBS gave a more thorough and complimentary analysis about Mao's GPF win, so that was fortunate.

I personally always found Mao to have excellent speed and ice coverage (she does so few crossovers, its quite amazing! ) and that was even more apparent this year. She may not have Yu-Na's facial expressions or the "flair" in dramatics as I like to call it, but Mao more than makes up for it in her transitions and choreo - something Eurosport also picked up on. And the music of Sheherazade itself helps the skater create the mood...turn the music off, like Okami said, and you'll notice all the resting and posing in Yu-Na's FS (which is not a bad thing, since it was choreographed to be as such and to give her some breathing time). The same can't be said for Masquerade - or many of Khachaturian's pieces like Spartacus or Sabre Dance. The music is very powerful, and if you don't skate to it as well as nailing the elements, it'll simply overpower the skater - one of the reasons why the other FS I love this season is Ashley's; she doesn't let the frantic section of Spartacus dictate her in the first half of her performance (she can definitely use some stamina near the end though where she just let her jumps go and she doesn't have the strength left to sell her steps like Mao).

Mao's Masquerade FS at NHK received the highest PCS out of the ladies this season, and deservedly so. The initial airing of Tokudane with the "Mao is lucky to win" foolishness conveniently forgot to mention that. They also kept saying PCS is the "artistic score" which is not completely accurate, and I wonder who the heck did the research for their coverage that day...that person must've been half asleep or something.

clovera wrote:

Well, the media will always criticize someone, or something since they have nothing better to do. As silly as it may sound, the U.S. media (especially individuals like Phil Hersh) has even nitpicked about Michelle's performances. And now that she is understood to be retired from competitive skating, Hersh has now decided to nitpick about the "lack" of American skating success in addition to the continual doom and gloom of CoP skating...despite Abbott and Johnny medaling at the GPF, or the junior ranks being overrun by U.S. skaters.

Now, about the clip criticizing Mao by Tokudane. That was completely out of line, IMO. Once again, no mention is made to the UR call in the SP, and Yoshie Onda actually had the nerve to say on public TV that Mao's skating is childlike - to which the commentators who know nothing about skating with concur to. One of them goes so far as to say Mao isn't balletic, and that Yu-Na shows more balletic qualities! He then goes on to an idiotic charade about Mao's costumes being far less mature to Yu-Na etc. that I had a hard time controlling myself. If they said that in front of Tat, they would've gotten a handful. Needless to say a lot of unsatisfied viewers must have notified the producers and complained, because...
.
.
Surprise surprise! The same morning news program that said "if Yu-Na was perfect she will win" actually gave a public apology saying they overlooked Mao's planned 3fl-3lo in the FS and that they were mistaken about the calculations. The host then gives a very pathetic excuse of "we aren't the experts so we didn't know" despite planned elements being accessible to the public for several days before giving another apology to Mao.

At least other broadcast stations like TBS gave a more thorough and complimentary analysis about Mao's GPF win, so that was fortunate.

I personally always found Mao to have excellent speed and ice coverage (she does so few crossovers, its quite amazing! ) and that was even more apparent this year. She may not have Yu-Na's facial expressions or the "flair" in dramatics as I like to call it, but Mao more than makes up for it in her transitions and choreo - something Eurosport also picked up on. And the music of Sheherazade itself helps the skater create the mood...turn the music off, like Okami said, and you'll notice all the resting and posing in Yu-Na's FS (which is not a bad thing, since it was choreographed to be as such and to give her some breathing time). The same can't be said for Masquerade - or many of Khachaturian's pieces like Spartacus or Sabre Dance. The music is very powerful, and if you don't skate to it as well as nailing the elements, it'll simply overpower the skater - one of the reasons why the other FS I love this season is Ashley's; she doesn't let the frantic section of Spartacus dictate her in the first half of her performance (she can definitely use some stamina near the end though where she just let her jumps go and she doesn't have the strength left to sell her steps like Mao).

Mao's Masquerade FS at NHK received the highest PCS out of the ladies this season, and deservedly so. The initial airing of Tokudane with the "Mao is lucky to win" foolishness conveniently forgot to mention that. They also kept saying PCS is the "artistic score" which is not completely accurate, and I wonder who the heck did the research for their coverage that day...that person must've been half asleep or something.

Absolutely agree with you !

Oh dear, what else does she have to do, so that people are finally satisfied?
Better not care at all and continue doing her own thing because that's what she's doing best.
Sometimes I feel like people really don't know what they want. Instead of just enjoying the great skaters while they are still active they criticise every possible or even impossible thing about them and when they are gone peope suddenly cry how wonderful they were and that none of the new ones come even close.

Mao now has a full set of triples, nice presentation and beautiful lines, good edges, stamina, she's not injury-prone (knock on wood), she is doing things no-one has ever done before, she's already won everything there is to win (except for the Olympics of course not having the opportunity yet) and if I'm not mistaken she has never finished lower than 2nd (except for SA 2006 when she was 3rd) in any international competition she entered. What else do we want?

Speaking of artistry, for me figure skating is a sport first. If I want to see some art I go to the theater or a gallery and don't look for it in a figure skating program that is mostly designed to fuffill the requirements of being competitive. Of course if the skater is able to interpret the music well and look good on the ice at the same time, all the better. But I don't think that's the only thing a skater deserves respect for, which is the impression I sometimes get from people who dismiss quads, 3-3s, difficult spin positions etc. and claim that artistry is all that matters.
As long as it is a competition I don't really understand such statements.

People will never agree on what artistry is anyway as it is always way too subjective. For example I liked a lot of things in Sasha's skating but the thing that really bothered me was her over-acting. I say over-acting while others will say she was the most artistic skater ever with wonderful facial expressions. The same goes for Yu-Na, she is a great athlete and I like her skating but I don't see the artistry she is so much praised for and I often find her interpretation rather cheap (I did like her Tango de Roxanne at Worlds though ).

Mao and Yu-Na are both wonderful skaters in their own ways with lots of qualities and few weaknesses that will vary depending on who you ask.
Yes, Mao can still improve but she won't get any better by turning into Yu-Na. They are simply different skaters and I think the Japanese media especially should appreciate Mao for what she is!

kawaiimao wrote:

Oh dear, what else does she have to do, so that people are finally satisfied?
Better not care at all and continue doing her own thing because that's what she's doing best.

Mao and Yu-Na are both wonderful skaters in their own ways with lots of qualities and few weaknesses that will vary depending on who you ask.
Yes, Mao can still improve but she won't get any better by turning into Yu-Na. They are simply different skaters and I think the Japanese media especially should appreciate Mao for what she is!

Amen to that!!

inskate wrote:

The Tokudane guys need to listen to the commentary by Nicky & Chris, Incle Dick & Pegyy (I miss them ) or Kurt & Tracy, not too mention the Russian or French commentators. Educate yourself first, then comment!

Eh,russian comentator Vasya fell in love with Mao's skating! For sure!
And what did happen to the Dick and Peggy?Are they gone from ESPN?

inskate wrote:

polosatik wrote:

And what did happen to the Dick and Peggy?Are they gone from ESPN?

ESPN no longer has the rights to broadcast figure skating... Now NBC bought the rights, and they don't have a contract with the the ESPN commentators. Terry is now commentating in other sports, and Uncle Dick and Peggy probably retired. I'll miss them, especially Uncle Dick's funny comments and comparisons.

Oh,no!!!!!!!!!!! I love them so much! It was my favourite channel!*crying*

inskate beat me to it! It's a shame since I loved ESPN's individual camera angles and commentating (which also included Terry Gannon + Susie Wynne). I can't stand Sandra Bezic on NBC as a commentator - she's a good choreographer, but commentator, not so much.

Uncle Dick has some influence and "face value" to the network execs. and the U.S. skating scene as a whole though, so he usually shows up in time for Olympics broadcasts even if that means he has to appear for NBC instead - he has done this for Torino anyway, so I'm sure we'll see him come Vancouver complimenting Mao.

I'm secretly keeping my fingers crossed that the Hollywood media darlings like Paris and Britney suddenly develop an interest in skating and attend competitions so they can attract some much needed media attention (and more importantly TV broadcasting time and advertisers) for next year's LA Worlds. Not the best way to get the attention, yes, but the sport truly is in the dumpsters as far as popularity in the U.S. is concerned, so I'm not complaining...especially if this means we get to see NBC cover skating live - not just their planned 2 hours of the ladies' free skate - instead of college football which I can care less about...

I can just imagine Paris Hilton going, "The triple something by this Mao girl. That's hot"

clovera wrote:

I can just imagine Paris Hilton going, "The triple something by this Mao girl. That's hot"

Gosh...... I'll die to hear it!

clovera wrote:

Uncle Dick has some influence and "face value" to the network execs. and the U.S. skating scene as a whole though, so he usually shows up in time for Olympics broadcasts even if that means he has to appear for NBC instead - he has done this for Torino anyway, so I'm sure we'll see him come Vancouver complimenting Mao.

That would be great!

Quote :

I can just imagine Paris Hilton going, "The triple something by this Mao girl. That's hot"

I watched Tokudane on YouTube. Ugh! I'm so disappointed with Minoru Sano and Yoshie. As former figure skaters they should at least have the common sense to check the protocols and planned element sheets.

I'm not even touching the "maturity" thing... Yep, everyone should skate serious & sexy, otherwise it's just not figure skating... So what, are (for example) Mirai's programs worse than Caroline's because she dares to skate playful programs that are appropriate for her age?

And how is Mao's LP dress not "mature"? Would the commentators buy something like that for their kid daughters..? I hope not!

sometimes i think maybe Mao doesn't look as speedy as some others skaters just because of her soft and light style? Mao has very pretty edges - at least to me, always - and i'll get all worked up when people try to question her basic skating skills.

MissAero wrote:

sometimes i think maybe Mao doesn't look as speedy as some others skaters just because of her soft and light style? Mao has very pretty edges - at least to me, always - and i'll get all worked up when people try to question her basic skating skills.

Probably. She also doesn't stroke too much, at least not as frequently or as *obviously* as someone who is known for being fast (e.g., Carolina, Irina). In that regards I find Mao's general skating to be really similar to Shizuka's - understated and not necessarily explosive, but gets the speed to do the elements with as little crossovers as possible.

It's likely that Mao's basic skating will not have the "impression" of being fast as a result of this, especially when viewed on a small screen or a 4:3 format. 16:9 broadcasts, or videocam clips from the audience clearly show Mao has pretty good speed though in her program. I would argue her basic ice coverage is even better this year, and Okami also pointed out the improvement on the speed for her spirals.

It's probably just me, but I've also felt that skaters who frequently telegraph add to an impression of appearing to be faster because of their simple (but top speed) entries into the jump without a variety of entries/moves...which makes Carolina look even faster when she's already roaring through the rink!

I've always thought that Mao had was not slow, but not the fastest figure skater. But when I saw her last year at Skate Canada, I was shocked! She is so much faster in reality! It really is impressing. Of course, some of her elements were slower (spirals) but she has really good speed in general!

clovera wrote:

It's likely that Mao's basic skating will not have the "impression" of being fast as a result of this, especially when viewed on a small screen or a 4:3 format. 16:9 broadcasts, or videocam clips from the audience clearly show Mao has pretty good speed though in her program.

That's a great point. It is really difficult to judge the speed when the video is of poor quality or when the screen is small. That's why I love watching widescreen videos and homevideos. And, of course, nothing beats watching skating live. Sadly, I haven't seen Mao live yet, but watching other skaters I learned to recognize those qualities that translate into good speed - deep knee bend, deep edges, steady, calm strokes... Shizuka's a great example here - in my opinion, she has one of the best edges in figure skating, and actually improved a lot during her pro career. I was just floored by the quality of her skating skills at Festa on Ice. I think Mao is going in the same direction - she doesn't use fast strokes to generate speed, but rather depth of the edges and good knee action. A great example of that is her EX at GPF... Again, it's inspiring to watch it with music turned off and concentrate on the edgework... How intricate and effortless it is, how quickly the speed is generated in spite of executing many elements that would make an average skater loose their speed and flow (changes of direction, dancing on toepics...) Not to mention the encore and the fantabulous step seuence...

Batsuchan wrote:

I was annoyed that they said that if Yu-Na had only one mistake, she would have won, because that's an overly simplistic analysis, in my opinion.

I think so too. I always say, if you want to say "such n such a skater would have beaten so and so if he/she had made one less mistake", then the other one gets to minimize one mistake as well.

Applying such reasoning, If you assume that Yuna gets to land her lutz, then you must also assume Mao lands her flip (without the combo), and that would add about 7 and 6 marks respectively (taking into account GOE) to each of their programs. And since Mao is leading by almost 2 points, she would still be ahead.

Then, if you want to add the salchow for Yuna as well, then Mao's flip-loop combo must be taken into account. So lutz and salchow (in second half) plus GOE is maybe 13? and the flip-loop combo in second half plus GOE is say, 12.5? Again, taking into account Mao's nearly 2 point lead...she would still be ahead.

People who say that if Yu-Na had one less mistake, she would have won haven`t thought about what Mao could have done better. They just add the lutz value to Yu-Na`s score and that`s it! I think this is ridiculous...

We shouldn`t worry that much. It`s soon nationals and there is a CHANCE to see a personal best for Mao, maybe Miki and Yukari as well!?!? Who knows?

5 days untill the ladies SP in Nationals!!!!! Hope to see many clean programs, but something I REALLY want to see is high PCS!

Can`t wait!!!

SoMiTripleAxel wrote:

5 days untill the ladies SP in Nationals!!!!! Hope to see many clean programs, but something I REALLY want to see is high PCS!

Can`t wait!!!

Not to mention I hope to see Mao score over 200 again!

just wondering...what would it take for Mao to get a level 4 on her step sequence? has anyone counted the number of steps n turns? It's so much longer n looks more packed than her previous step sequences, especially her current long program's...