Jumping layout for the 09-10 season

Discuss.
POSSIBLE JUMPING LAYOUTS
3A-2T 9.50
3A 8.20
3F-3T 9.50

3Lz 6.60
3F-2Lo-2Lo 9.35
3Lo 5.50
2A - 3.85
= 52.50 -BatsuChan
----------------------------
3a+2t+2l= 11.0
3a = 8.20
3f+3l = 10.40
3zx =6.60
3f+3tx = 10.45
3sx= 4.95
2ax =3.85
55.45 -Pooping
------------------------------
3A-2T 9.50
3A 8.20
3F-2L-2L 8.50
3F-3L x 11.55
3Lz x 6.60
3S x 4.95
2A x 3.85
53.15 -Okami
-----------------------------
3A 8.20
3Lz 6.00
2A-3T 7.50
3F-2L x 7.70
3L-2L-2L x 8.80
3F x 6.05
3L x 5.50
49.75 -Okami
----------------------------
Triple lutz/triple axel can be discussed here from the previous thread from "Mao news"

zooma wrote:

The quad is not a MUST jump for top men but the 3A is definitely needed. What Mao is doing is 3 quads + no 3A, no lutz and no 3-3 for men. Is there anyone doing thing like that? How the judges consider such unbalanced programs? I consider men's quad is similar to ladies' 3-3 (3F-3T or 3Lz-3T). If Mao doesn't include the lutz in the SP, she mustn't avoid in the FS. Even a second rate skater like Lepisto is attemping 3Lz now.

clovera wrote:

I'm having a hard time understanding you, technically speaking. If you consider Mao's programs to be the male equivalent of a 3 quad program with NO 3A, 3Lz, or 3-3, then what exactly does the flip or loop convert to? Or the 3-jump combinations? Or even a 3-2? Even from the get-go your argument is not making much sense to me.

In any case, we have to agree to disagree. Unbalanced jump-layouts, according to you, do not promote high scores but in reality have indeed garnered great success for Mao at WTT - and that is with TWO downgrades; Yu-Na had no loop and 3 sal at Worlds 09, but wasn't exactly "reconsidered" by the judges on technical merit despite the obvious lack of a triple jump arsenal.

I'm inclined into thinking that you believe certain jumps are required for leaving a better impression to the judges/PCS (skating skills?) to improve - the 3A for the men and the 3Lz for the ladies - but I don't see the relevance for that under CoP (it definitely has under the 6.0 system, that I can agree with). Case in point: PatChan with botched 3A's still outscoring Kozu back at TEB '08. And another case can be seen in Euros 2009, where CaroK barely scored a point higher than Lepisto on the TES and just 2 pts. higher on the PCS for the FS with similar jump content, except that Laura lacked both the 3fl or the 3lz at this particular competition (CaroK had both). As the above exemplify, in the strictest sense - under CoP - you don't really "need" a jump unless it's a required element like the 2A or one of the triples for Junior-level competitions. In the end of the day, the 3A-is-a-must (or 3 lz for the ladies) claim can easily be repudiated by a male skater who lands quads instead of the 3A or the lady who *may* choose to jump the 3A instead of the 3lz - Mao. But even that is irrelevant because we have no idea for sure what Mao's jump layout is even going to be.

So I beg to ask, what are you trying to say?
(and perhaps you should rephrase labeling Laura Lepisto as a "second rate skater" with something a bit more tactful, like a "dark horse" or something similar)

zooma wrote:

What I'm saying is the 3Lz is a MUST jump for top ladies and avoiding it will hurt the reputation as a top skater. That's not the case for 3Lo or 3S. They are optional under CoP. Many skaters (regardless of top or second rate) omit them. All top 13 ladies EXCEPT Mao at LA worlds attemped the 3Lz at least once in the FS. I don't highly appreciate Mao's so-called challenges because two 3A without the lutz is meaningless point-wise and it well could be consider as a sign of weakness. In fact, Mao's PCS has already suffered. Kim and Chan (Rochette) are privileged skaters under current conditions. No other skater will be given those outrageous scores even with exactly same performances.

clovera wrote:

Right, because Mao still gets one of the highest PCS scores out of the current ladies, lutz or no lutz (or back when it was a flutz).

I see that zooma hasn't countered against the Kostner/Lepisto case. Because like I've said already, omitting the lutz is NOT pointless in terms of getting points. There are so many ways one can get around CoP - that's what makes the system both good and bad.

I'm sorry, but all this talk about reputation and weakness is pathetic in my eyes and paranoid. You can go continue bickering about Team Mao's decision to not include the lutz elsewhere, since I personally want to keep a positive air around the forum (and for starters, like I previously mentioned, Team Mao hasn't even confirmed what the jump layouts for the programs are going to be exactly - not to mention jump practices are currently prohibited from being recorded - so why must we be so hard on this issue when all we can do at this point is speculate?)

If there's anything you will like to say, zooma, PM me - I give my advance apologies to the mods and fellow posters.

bellarina wrote:

One thing I want to see this season is a firm, concrete jump layout. Obviously it needs to be changed the initial layout isn't working, but I'd like to see as little changes as possible so that Mao's muscle memory is the best it can be and she goes into all her jumps with full confidence.

As for the triple lutz, well, she's the one who fixed it over one SUMMER- this is a jump she's been practicing for years and years! It's needed time to stabilize and I think we'll see it more consistent this season as she has more experience with it.

Is the new rule for underrotations going to make a big difference? Or is it just a small one? Since the biggest cut in points seems to be because it's reduced to the base value of a double, but then again, positive GOEs would really help..

Pooping wrote:

Um... I believe the new rule for underrotations were that the panel of judges won't be able to see the < mark (i think also for edge calls as well), thus they can add GOE if the jump is visually okay or deduct GOE if the jump was poorly executed. Which only means, people can get GOE for an underotated jump:), which should have been the rule implied from the very begining.

sapphiresky wrote:

zooma wrote:


What I'm saying is the 3Lz is a MUST jump for top ladies and avoiding it will hurt the reputation as a top skater. That's not the case for 3Lo or 3S. They are optional under CoP. Many skaters (regardless of top or second rate) omit them. All top 13 ladies EXCEPT Mao at LA worlds attemped the 3Lz at least once in the FS. I don't highly appreciate Mao's so-called challenges because two 3A without the lutz is meaningless point-wise and it well could be consider as a sign of weakness. In fact, Mao's PCS has already suffered. Kim and Chan (Rochette) are privileged skaters under current conditions. No other skater will be given those outrageous scores even with exactly same performances.



Hmm...I really disagree with this. I don't think not doing the lutz is that much of a problem (I'm not saying Mao isn't doing it since we don't know of course). If everyone attempted the lutz, how is it that special? Things are unique when fewer people attempt it. I can turn your argument around and say that Mao was the ONLY one to attempt AND complete 1 and 2 triple axels. And how is the 3A without the lutz meaningless??? I think that's a little harsh...
I think there are jumps that everyone chooses to not do. No skater is perfect, there are certain jumps (eg. salchow) that others think are easy that may be difficult for others. And by your argument, I can say that since others choose not to do the 3A, that it is a sign of weakness? I don't really think that's fair...each skater has a jump layout that fits them and I think we should respect everyone's decisions.

zooma wrote:

sapphiresky wrote:
zooma wrote:


What I'm saying is the 3Lz is a MUST jump for top ladies and avoiding it will hurt the reputation as a top skater. That's not the case for 3Lo or 3S. They are optional under CoP. Many skaters (regardless of top or second rate) omit them. All top 13 ladies EXCEPT Mao at LA worlds attemped the 3Lz at least once in the FS. I don't highly appreciate Mao's so-called challenges because two 3A without the lutz is meaningless point-wise and it well could be consider as a sign of weakness. In fact, Mao's PCS has already suffered. Kim and Chan (Rochette) are privileged skaters under current conditions. No other skater will be given those outrageous scores even with exactly same performances.



Hmm...I really disagree with this. I don't think not doing the lutz is that much of a problem (I'm not saying Mao isn't doing it since we don't know of course). If everyone attempted the lutz, how is it that special? Things are unique when fewer people attempt it. I can turn your argument around and say that Mao was the ONLY one to attempt AND complete 1 and 2 triple axels. And how is the 3A without the lutz meaningless??? I think that's a little harsh...
I think there are jumps that everyone chooses to not do. No skater is perfect, there are certain jumps (eg. salchow) that others think are easy that may be difficult for others. And by your argument, I can say that since others choose not to do the 3A, that it is a sign of weakness? I don't really think that's fair...each skater has a jump layout that fits them and I think we should respect everyone's decisions.



Doing 3Lz is not special at all. Ladies who didn't attempt 3Lz at worlds FS are Mao and four or five skaters who can't do it in the first place. I must say Mao is considering herself special or privileged someone. Such rather arrogant attitudes won't help her reputation in the judges eyes. What's the sense of boasting "challenges" while avoidng every uncomfortable jump? It's more honest to say "I'd like to concentrate on the axel because I have many jumping problems."

The 3A was a weak jump for Lambiel. But he didn't avoid it at big competitions. Because the 3A is a MUST jump for top men and he didn't consider himself as special or privileged someone.

clovera wrote:

zooma wrote:
I must say Mao is considering herself special or privileged someone. Such rather arrogant attitudes won't help her reputation in the judges eyes. What's the sense of boasting "challenges" while avoidng every uncomfortable jump? It's more honest to say "I'd like to concentrate on the axel because I have many jumping problems."

The 3A was a weak jump for Lambiel. But he didn't avoid it at big competitions. Because the 3A is a MUST jump for top men and he didn't consider himself as special or privileged someone.


...I really didn't want to respond to yet another ridiculous post, but the way you addressed Mao was just

Of course Mao is special - she lands the 3A, is a great all-around skater, and has lines and posture to die for.

And FYI, Mao HAS said she was uncomfortable with the lutz, hence why she struggled on interviews and fluffs post 4CC and Worlds. Where on earth have you been? Oh, and before I forget - Lambiel with a botched 3A still beat Dai at the 2008 GPF. Again, a "MUST" jump to win? (How many times do I need to tell you we no longer have 6.0?) Someone needs to get a reality check, pronto.

And yet again I have to repeat myself because it doesn't seem to get through that thick skull of yours: when has Tat or Mao ever said that they will avoid the lutz this year?

zooma is starting to be a mix of both an I-only-care-about-winning uber and a crazed troll. I'm not sure what to say at this point.

zooma wrote:

clovera wrote:

Of course Mao is special - she lands the 3A, is a great all-around skater, and has lines and posture to die for.

And FYI, Mao HAS said she was uncomfortable with the lutz, hence why she struggled on interviews and fluffs post 4CC and Worlds. Where on earth have you been? Oh, and before I forget - Lambiel with a botched 3A still beat Dai at the 2008 GPF. Again, a "MUST" jump to win? (How many times do I need to tell you we no longer have 6.0?) Someone needs to get a reality check, pronto.

And yet again I have to repeat myself because it doesn't seem to get through that thick skull of yours: when has Tat or Mao ever said that they will avoid the lutz this year?



I have never said the 3A is a MUST jump to win (for men). "Botched but still win" is one thing. Avoiding from the beginning is a completely different matter. If Lambiel didn't attempt 3A there, he couldn't win without doubt. His "win" is more about the random selection of the judges. We have seen his luck finally ran out at 2008 worlds. I'm afraid same thing could happened to Mao after 4CC.

And I'm not talking about avoiding the lutz or not in this season. It's not rational to praise whatever Mao says and does. Even a fan like me have doubts on her inconsistent and egocentric attitudes.

clovera wrote:

zooma wrote:
The 3Lz is a MUST jump for top ladies as same as the 3A for top men.

zooma wrote:
The quad is not a MUST jump for top men but the 3A is definitely needed.

zooma wrote:
I have never said the 3A is a MUST jump to win (for men).

Word of advice: at least edit your posts, before making false claims and contradicting yourself to John Kerry-level proportions, will you? (Your arguments continue to not make a whole lot of sense anyway.) Its convenient that you only respond to only parts of what I post, too.

You begin by saying 3A is not a "MUST" jump for men to win, yet the next two sentences erases that statement completely. I would love to know where you get the idea of random luck - Lambiel was outperformed at Worlds by Buttle/Joubert/Johnny anyway; him not being on the podium there has very little to do with random selection.

Here you are whining about Mao's self-centered behavior which is beyond my understanding and state that "its not about the lutz" - yet your tirade for the last 4 days has been on that matter (with the rest on how tactless it is for Mao to continue pursuing 3fl-3lp).

Because, you know, even a generally positive person like me can have doubts on zooma's "inconsistent and egocentric attitudes."

zooma wrote:

Did I say the 3A is a MUST jump to win? I've just said the 3A is a MUST jump for top men --- which means they can't "choose" to do or not to do. The same logic applies to the 3Lz for top ladies.

At least for big competitions like Worlds, Olympics, I can't remember any top men who avoided the 3A intentionally because "uncomfortable." And I can't remember any top ladies EXCEPT Mao who avoided the 3Lz intentionally because "uncomfortable." I must admit she's really "special" in this sense, but that's not anything to defend or praise.

clovera wrote:

zooma wrote:
At least for big competitions like Worlds, Olympics, I can't remember any top men who avoided the 3A intentionally because "uncomfortable." And I can't remember any top ladies EXCEPT Mao who avoided the 3Lz intentionally because "uncomfortable." I must admit she's really "special" in this sense, but that's not anything to defend or praise.

Again, your arguments are weak, because at Worlds '09 Mao still went for the lutz in the SP - doubled. That's similar to Lambiel's "botched but still went for it" 3A, yes? So no, she hasn't exactly avoided that jump in spite of your constant harping on that matter. The only time she has avoided the lutz completely is at the WTT, which has NOT lessened the judges' impressions or scores for her. Now, if you define WTT as a major competition on par with Worlds or Olys that's one thing...(its pretty much the only way for you to stay alive in this debate).

You first brought up the issue of the lutz in relations to lesser scores. Now you are using it in relations to some sort of odd ethical standard which still doesn't work (Worlds 09). And ethics, unlike scores, aren't concrete and aren't deserving of accusations or obnoxious comments.

Give up zooma. You just continue to dig a deeper grave for yourself with every response you give to my posts.

zooma wrote:

ladies EXCEPT Mao who avoided the 3Lz intentionally because "uncomfortable." I must admit she's really "special" in this sense, but that's not anything to defend or praise.

Again, your arguments are weak, because at Worlds '09 Mao still went for the lutz in the SP (doubled). That's similar to Lambiel's "botched but still went for it" 3A, yes? So no, she hasn't exactly avoided that jump in spite of your constant harping on that matter. The only time she has avoided the lutz completely is at the WTT, which has NOT lessened the judges' impressions or scores for her.



Lambiel landed a clean (rarity) 3A in the SP and landed a "botched" one in FS. Still the latter earned 5.5 points. Considering the extremely narrow gap with Takahashi (0.16 points), it's obvious that he couldn't win if he avoided the 3A in the FS. Mao didn't land the 3Lz in the SP and avoided intentionally in the FS. This example is completely irrelevant.

WTT is a home event. I don't think they could be that generous every time.

clovera wrote:

zooma wrote:
This example is completely irrelevant.

No it isn't. Here you are bringing Lambiel's 3A in terms of points and how it was necessary to win. Even if Mao had landed the 3lz in the SP and went for one in the FS and landed it successfully, it still wouldn't have given her the gold; or are you going to just mention Yu-Na's scores as a generous gift from the judges?. Just what are you trying to say, in the end? You continue to go back and forth between the 3lz as necessary to win under CoP vs. the 3lz as a required jump that top ladies "have" to jump (i.e., your argument shuffles around and you never stick to a single topic).

Whatever.

zooma wrote:

clovera wrote:
Even if Mao had landed the 3lz in the SP and went for one in the FS and landed it successfully, it still wouldn't have given her the gold. Just what are you trying to say here? You continue to go back and forth between the 3lz as necessary to win vs. the 3lz as a required jump that top ladies "have" to jump. Pick a side and stick with it.



Do you want to speculate? If Mao landed the 3Lz in the SP, I suspect the tech panel would've downgraded the 3-3 as usual. I can't complain about it. However Mao's 3-3 was a little better than Ando's (clearly a 1/4 turn short). There's a possilbilty of being fully credited. In that case, Kim skating after Mao must feel extreme pressure. We have witnessed at GPF last year, she's proven to crumble when pressured. Who knows what happened? If Mao skated a clean SP, Kim's PCS inflation wouldn't be that huge. She can never skate clean FS even when having 10 points leads.

A major reason of Kim's huge PCS is Mao's lack of motivation and confidence. Mao has fallen out of the competition by her own will. Avoiding the 3Lz is a clear sign of it, I guess.

clovera wrote:

zooma wrote:
Do you want to speculate? If Mao landed the 3Lz in the SP, I suspect the tech panel would've downgraded the 3-3 as usual. I can't complain about it. However Mao's 3-3 was a little better than Ando's (clearly a 1/4 turn short). There's a possilbilty of being fully credited. In that case, Kim skating after Mao must feel extreme pressure. We have witnessed at GPF last year, she's proven to crumble when pressured. Who knows what happened? If Mao skated a clean SP, Kim's PCS inflation wouldn't be that huge. She can never skate clean FS even when having 10 points leads.

So now you make a case of it being necessary in terms of points. In any case, had Mao landed the lutz in the SP, then where is the merit to include it in her FS? Mao's loop is one of her best jumps, one that will garner her definite GoE'S. I don't see the logic to replace that loop with the lutz. The same thing can be said with the combinations that have the 3F as the first jump, since the 3F is a strong jump for Mao.

That leaves the only probable jump that can be replaced for the 3Lz the 3T, where she has to follow up rather quickly with a 2A and is right before her SLSS. Do you honestly believe the 3Lz should be included in that area of the program? I strongly doubt it. So no, the 3Lz in this case still isn't a necessary jump in term of points. Like Chris Howarth said on British Eurosport, there is no space for it, and it isn't needed.

End of story.

If you still think all elite skaters should try the 3lz, then go ahead. There's no point arguing with you on this issue any further, and hopefully Mao will continue improving (she will), and hopefully include the 3lz in one of her competitive programs so that you will, pardon my language, shut up.

zooma wrote:

I wonder what Mao's "challenges" were for.

No man won WC without the 3A since 1985 (Fadeev).
No woman won WC without the 3Lz since 1989 (Ito)

All top ladies EXCEPT Mao attempted the 3Lz because they cared about winning. The 3Lz is a MUST jump for top ladies in a sence that they don't have an option at big competitions. When Mao "chose" to avoid the lutz she's already out of it. Or did she try to "challenge" the history by proving that the 3Lz is not needed to win? Either way, the majority judges won't be happy about the idea. If she didn't avoid the lutz in the FS, I think she would have won at least silver.

I'm pretty sure Rochette's silver is undeserving. But I was not disappointed about the result itself. The 3Lz is needed even for just medalling at big competitions. The history shouldn't be challenged easily.

Pooping wrote:

zOOMA, Do you even like Mao? Are you a fan? Because this is a fan forum.

Mao likes the 3a. her lutz is inconsistent. thats why she does 2, and also why rochette and kim does 2 lutz.

zooma wrote:

Pooping wrote:
zOOMA, Do you even like Mao? Are you a fan? Because this is a fan forum..



Do you think I'm an anti-Mao or a Kim fan? Obviously not.

Those who just praise and refuse looking straight to problems are not fans but worshippers, I may say. If the lutz is a weak point for her, why doesn't she try as many times as possible. Running away from the problem won't solve anything.
Quote:
Mao likes the 3a. her lutz is inconsistent. thats why she does 2, and also why rochette and kim does 2 lutz.



Suppose to say, Lambiel likes the 4T. His 3A is inconsistent. That's why he does two. That's Ok but he doesn't "choose" to omit the 3A at will. The word "likes" is better to rephrase "needs to rely on".

zooma wrote:

[Everything concerning Lambiel, his 4T and 3A]

zooma wrote:

All top ladies EXCEPT Mao attempted the 3Lz because they cared about winning. The 3Lz is a MUST jump for top ladies in a sence that they don't have an option at big competitions. When Mao "chose" to avoid the lutz she's already out of it.

Point-counting isn't my strong side, but well, almost every male skater with ambitions tries quad these days, many actually land it. If Lambiel goes with 'comfortable' quads, but leaves 3A-s from his fs, what would be the base value of that program in comparison to ones of his main 'quadruple' competitors? Probably nothing that fascinating.

Who else among ladies except Mao ties 3A? Not talking about *landing* two of them in one program. So what's so deadly points-wise for Mao to evade a 3lutz? She's still technically two heads above everybody else.

zooma wrote:

If the lutz is a weak point for her, why doesn't she try as many times as possible. Running away from the problem won't solve anything.

Excuse me, but what are you talking about? Mao is running away? Are you sure?
Maybe lutz is running away from Mao Asada, but most certainly not the other way around.
I bet most of the ladies, having a technical content of Mao, would forget about any flutz fixing idea and concentrate their time and effort on something completely else, while Mao exactly tried - probably even somewhat irrationally at times - to chase it. TAT was saying in her commentary before becoming Mao's coach: "Oh, flutz, some -GoE, who cares?" And still, Mao tried to fix it, risking that way to spoil what she had as her actual flutz technique, as well as her confidence (about the jump and overall).

Yes, they excluded it from the last Worlds' fs. Apparently because they/TAT considered that at that particular point it would bring more harm than good.

So who is running from what?

Argh! This is so annoying. I totally understand your frustration Clovera

Zooma you said, Those who just praise and refuse looking straight to problems are not fans but worshippers, I may say. If the lutz is a weak point for her, why doesn't she try as many times as possible. Running away from the problem won't solve anything.

First of all, none of us said that the lutz isn't a problem for Mao...We just said that she doesn't need it to win and it's NOT a required jump (if you just take a look at ISU rules). The point that everyone else does it, doesn't make it required.
Do you see no flaws in your argument? Let me ask you something, isn't there something that you're not good at? If you do badly on a test, in a subject that you're not the best at even though you studied a lot, how would you feel if I said: why doesn't "she try as many times as possible" or Try harder! We're all seeing her efforts, she's not running away. Sometimes when things don't work out (like at WC for Mao), you just don't do it- to maximize chances of winning. But I'm pretty sure she's working at it again...just like the Mao we know (remember how she trains so hard?)
Same applies to why some ppl CHOOSE to major in English and others in Physics at university. I can't tell the English person to study/try harder to be better at physics! It doesn't work that way!
We're fans of Mao, but we're logical fans. I'm just really annoyed at your arguments, they really don't make any sense. Period.

sapphiresky wrote:

First of all, none of us said that the lutz isn't a problem for Mao...We just said that she doesn't need it to win and it's NOT a required jump (if you just take a look at ISU rules). The point that everyone else does it, doesn't make it required.

That is the point I object. The history proved differently. No lutz, no medal at worlds. The judges didn't appreciate Mao's "challenges." If they did, they would've done their best to give her a medal.

Mao's no medal at worlds has nothing to do with her lacking of lutz in the long program. It is the doubled lutz and the second 3A that cost her. If Mao landed the second 3A, I am pretty much sure that Mao still will medal at what even if she doesn't have a lutz in the long program.
Really, I don't think there is a must or something in a program. People always say that to be a champion you need a full set of 5 kinds of triples. I don't remember what Miki did in 2007, but both Mao and Yuna didn't have five kinds of triples when they got their title, Mao for four and Yuna for three.
But I agree that Mao needs lutz. Not because it is a MUST for win, but because it is part of Mao's challenges and she should not give up. And I believe that Mao will not give up and remember that in the recent interview Mao said that she is still working on lutz.

Mao get up every morning and go to train many hours, and she study too, nobody work for her, then she can do whatever she wants (2 3a, 2 3-3, no lutz, etc), she know the consequences of her facts. this is that I admire of Mao, she don´t skate for nobody, only for her, because she loves skating.

and of course, Mao is for nothing special, why?, only because is the only woman in to land two 3a in competition in the history?. She is a crazy


sorry my english

Ok. NEW possible jumping layouts with the accumlation of 3Lo-lO.

3A 8.20
3L-3L 11.0
3Lz 6.00
--------------------
3F-2LX 7.70
3Sx 4.95
3Fx 6.05
2A-2L-2Lx = 7.15

= 51.016

-INSKATE