NHK Trophy 2010

Dani-Chan wrote:

Yayayaya I am already excited again!! There is no point in keep remembering bad moments, let's just get ready for the new chance.
Hey, when is going to be her FP? Is it tomorrow?

Yep! It will start at 18 :47 if I'm not mistaken

Can someone write a substantial answer about WHY this technique change idea appeared in the first place? It seemed like she was landing so much under Tarasova last couple of years, and her mental focus came through in a lot of competitions (excluding beginning of last season)... Why did she need to change anything? Was it the discrepancy of the marks (not enough GOE's?) as compared with other top skaters? I wish she would have fully committed to TAT and moved to Russia for that time period. But now, what worries me is whether or not she's thinking too much of the OGM dream of Sochi. It seems that those that stress themselves out so much can't handle the pressure of the actual moment (Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, etc.) and slip in a mistake or two, and somebody else gets the gold. I don't want her to have an idee-fix (I'm not sure how to spell that) - I want her to return to giving herself and others joy as she skates.
And please don't tell me I'm negative. I don't look at this board as a cheering section that is unfailing. I look at it as a place of discussion, where we can talk about things if they are NOT going according to plan for Mao... I wish somebody with more technical experience can enlighten me as to the whole "changing technique" process. How successful is it and how many 20 y.o. skaters have undertaken it in the past? Was it really necessary after seeing how Mao skated at the end of last season?

Artistry wrote:

Can someone write a substantial answer about WHY this technique change idea appeared in the first place? It seemed like she was landing so much under Tarasova last couple of years, and her mental focus came through in a lot of competitions (excluding beginning of last season)... Why did she need to change anything? Was it the discrepancy of the marks (not enough GOE's?) as compared with other top skaters? I wish she would have fully committed to TAT and moved to Russia for that time period. But now, what worries me is whether or not she's thinking too much of the OGM dream of Sochi. It seems that those that stress themselves out so much can't handle the pressure of the actual moment (Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, etc.) and slip in a mistake or two, and somebody else gets the gold. I don't want her to have an idee-fix (I'm not sure how to spell that) - I want her to return to giving herself and others joy as she skates.
And please don't tell me I'm negative. I don't look at this board as a cheering section that is unfailing. I look at it as a place of discussion, where we can talk about things if they are NOT going according to plan for Mao... I wish somebody with more technical experience can enlighten me as to the whole "changing technique" process. How successful is it and how many 20 y.o. skaters have undertaken it in the past? Was it really necessary after seeing how Mao skated at the end of last season?

I can answer you for sure that Joannie came through the same kind of process, but she was working on her edges. Mao jumps lacked in flow and distance,that's why her GOE at them wasn't really high as Joannie's and Yuna's.

I think Mao should do more crossovers directly into jumps. If you look at someone like Yuna who gets huge GOE for her jumps- she does 5-6 crossovers straight into jumps. That's how she gets the flow out of it. Mao on the other hand usually has choreography interwined or she only does 2 or 3 strokes and mohawks straight into her jumps.

maowataiyo wrote:

I think Mao should do more crossovers directly into jumps. If you look at someone like Yuna who gets huge GOE for her jumps- she does 5-6 crossovers straight into jumps. That's how she gets the flow out of it. Mao on the other hand usually has choreography interwined or she only does 2 or 3 strokes and mohawks straight into her jumps.

no matter what I hope mao has a good free skate tomorrow she looked soo sad in the kiss and cry, even through she knew that she made a couple of mistakes she probably didn't expect that low a score nor did anyone... I know that this will be one big challenge tomorrow but if anyone can do it, it would be mao. and I have a feeling that she might do a second 3A.

I hope that mao takes tomorrow as another challenge and doesn't lose confidence, because that I think would be the worst thing that could happen. now that I think about it does anyone now if mao will skate in the 2 half of the competition???

Quote :

I can answer you for sure that Joannie came through the same kind of process,

Yes, Joannie is the best example. She worked not only on her edges - she also modified slightly her entrances to 3F and 3Lz. She used to pick with a straight leg, then she changed it so that her free leg is bent in the knee on the take-off (as Mao in practices with Nagakubo).

Michelle Kwan worked on her 3Lz fairly late in her career and it became better. Nobunari Oda used to have flawed technique on Lutz and he was inconsistent with 3S/3L, but now his jumps are textbook. Miki fixed her lip, and while it isn't very consistent, it's beautiful when landed cleanly. I think it would be more consistent if Miki didn't keep re-injuring her shoulder and missing practice because of that.

I think we'll see more skaters fixing their jumps starting from this season. When the new rules kicked in, a lot of skaters probably were too worried to start working on their technique before the Olympic in fear that they might lose consistency and not make the Olympic team. Now, I think, a lot of skaters will want to fix their jumps in time for Sochi.

In this competition, Caroline Zhang and Kanako visibly improved their flips. They are not 100% perfect yet, but Caroline got rid of the mule kick, and Kanako doesn't bend over so much on the take-off anymore and her jumps cover more distance now.

Quote :

I think Mao should do more crossovers directly into jumps. If you look at someone like Yuna who gets huge GOE for her jumps- she does 5-6 crossovers straight into jumps.

That's not necessarily good technique - the best types of jumps are those directly out of transitions and still having a lot of speed.

Matt Savoie's 3A out of a hydroblade, Nobunari's 3L out of running threes or back spiral, 3F and 3S out of drop threes, 3Lz out of forward Ina Bauer or back spiral, Shizuka's 3Lz out of back Biellman spiral and 3S-2T-2L out of layback Ina Bauer...
Even YuNa did crossovers mostly onto her 3-3 combo, she had speadeagle entrance into 2A-3T, Ina Bauer into 2A-2T-2L, steps into 3S and 3F...

"Original entrance" is actually one of the criteria's for the jump GoEs.

But this is something that comes when skater is already very comfortable with his/her technique.

Some coaches actually tell their skaters to do jumps out of steps while learning to jump. This makes the jump more difficult, and the logic is that if thskater learns to jump out of steps, it will be all the more easier to jump normally.

As for Mao, she started worked on her tecjhnique with Nagakubo to
a) regain her consistency (her old technique doesn't work well for tall skaters)
b) make her jumps cover more ice and have more flow on tle landing to get higher GoEs, avoid DGs (more time in the air = more time to rotate the jump) and be able to land 3F-3S (if there's no speed out of the first jump, it's very dificult to rotate the second one fully).

Hi guys, I've already watched the competition in youtube, but I read about her falls before...I´m really sad about Mao performance, and I´m worried about how She is feeling right now. I hope someone (Mai, her mother or Sato) tell her something to make her feels better.

I just wait, I know that eventually She´ll do wonderful.

I hope She has a great FS and win the competition.

I believe in MAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, Mao's axels looked pretty nice in practice (lighter than before). I agree with LingLang that Sato is not going to just leave her technique like that. I think he is just not for radical change. I know some people prefer Nakagubo here but I was always unsure if he could really fix Mao's technique. Akiko's technique is just okay to me. Of course, it's not like Sato has proven success in the fixing technique department but I don't think one coach is necessarily better than the other for this job. I wonder if Mao would ever consider to hiring Nobu's coach (Barkell). He has proven success in this area.

aoi88 wrote:

Actually, Mao's axels looked pretty nice in practice (lighter than before). I agree with LingLang that Sato is not going to just leave her technique like that. I think he is just not for radical change. I know some people prefer Nakagubo here but I was always unsure if he could really fix Mao's technique. Akiko's technique is just okay to me. Of course, it's not like Sato has proven success in the fixing technique department but I don't think one coach is necessarily better than the other for this job. I wonder if Mao would ever consider to hiring Nobu's coach (Barkell). He has proven success in this area.

Akiko got both wrong edges at flip and lutz at FT!

ballerinamao wrote:

no matter what I hope mao has a good free skate tomorrow she looked soo sad in the kiss and cry, even through she knew that she made a couple of mistakes she probably didn't expect that low a score nor did anyone... I know that this will be one big challenge tomorrow but if anyone can do it, it would be mao. and I have a feeling that she might do a second 3A.

I hope that mao takes tomorrow as another challenge and doesn't lose confidence, because that I think would be the worst thing that could happen. now that I think about it does anyone now if mao will skate in the 2 half of the competition???

Yeah, she looked extremely sad, almost solemn. I don't what jumping passes are in, but I'll go look for the elements sheet at icenetwork or something and post it here. I'm praying she gets her confidence back to. And Mao is definitely a fighter. I hope she just builds from this like she always does.

inskate wrote:

That's not necessarily good technique - the best types of jumps are those directly out of transitions and still having a lot of speed.

Matt Savoie's 3A out of a hydroblade, Nobunari's 3L out of running threes or back spiral, 3F and 3S out of drop threes, 3Lz out of forward Ina Bauer or back spiral, Shizuka's 3Lz out of back Biellman spiral and 3S-2T-2L out of layback Ina Bauer...
Even YuNa did crossovers mostly onto her 3-3 combo, she had speadeagle entrance into 2A-3T, Ina Bauer into 2A-2T-2L, steps into 3S and 3F...

"Original entrance" is actually one of the criteria's for the jump GoEs.

But this is something that comes when skater is already very comfortable with his/her technique.

Some coaches actually tell their skaters to do jumps out of steps while learning to jump. This makes the jump more difficult, and the logic is that if thskater learns to jump out of steps, it will be all the more easier to jump normally.

As for Mao, she started worked on her tecjhnique with Nagakubo to
a) regain her consistency (her old technique doesn't work well for tall skaters)
b) make her jumps cover more ice and have more flow on tle landing to get higher GoEs, avoid DGs (more time in the air = more time to rotate the jump) and be able to land 3F-3S (if there's no speed out of the first jump, it's very dificult to rotate the second one fully).[/color]

Oh, I definitely don't think it's the greatest of techniques. That's one of my tiffs with the CoP, but that's what get the high GOEs. That was just me getting frustrated. I guarantee you most of Yuna's jumps have tons of stroking even with steps in them. The original entrances are usually reserved for the double axels and you don't need to be evil kenevil for that.

I think she's going to work with Nagakubo again for the offseason, right?

polosatik wrote:

aoi88 wrote:

Actually, Mao's axels looked pretty nice in practice (lighter than before). I agree with LingLang that Sato is not going to just leave her technique like that. I think he is just not for radical change. I know some people prefer Nakagubo here but I was always unsure if he could really fix Mao's technique. Akiko's technique is just okay to me. Of course, it's not like Sato has proven success in the fixing technique department but I don't think one coach is necessarily better than the other for this job. I wonder if Mao would ever consider to hiring Nobu's coach (Barkell). He has proven success in this area.

Akiko got both wrong edges at flip and lutz at FT!

I heard that too. Straight edging is becoming more and more scrutinized.

Here's Mao Sp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0U3ZZgYU78

As a Mao fan I'm really sad to see her struggle and such, but the only thing I can do is hope she nails the long program. At the moment I doesn't really matter to me right now if she wins the gold, silver, or even bronze or if she's not on the podium at all. As a major Mao fan all I want her to do is just to have a good performance one that she can be happy with and that her fans can be happy with. By the way I LOVE her dress !

Btw Kanako's music is in my head all day, I'm jumping like crazy. What did she do with me?

Okay, I am going to rant a little about ISU and CoP. I always felt the ISU just chooses to do whatever they feel like. Before, they couldn't care less about edges or slight underrotations. It was all about having clean skates. But then they suddenly decide to take strict measures on these things and they particularly hammer certain skaters to serve as an example. In reality, it's really their fault because if they had installed these rules earlier, then the younger skaters wouldn't have learned those flawed technqiues or they would have corrected them immediately if they did learn since they know they will get hammered later on. Anyways, another thing that really bother me about these rules is that they don't even enforce them consistently. I mean how many times did we see Lysacek being rewarded for his 3A's? And also just because a skater does certain jumps very well doesn't mean they should be rewarded for all the jumps they do. But it seems if that not only does +Goe for good jumps extend to other jumps, they also get extended to other elements of the skater when they are quite average. The CoP states it promotes well-balanced programs and not only jumps blah blah blah. But in reality, they still just care about the jumps. They focus on different things (technique over difficulty) but in the end, it's still about the jumps.

polosatik wrote:

Btw Kanako's music is in my head all day, I'm jumping like crazy. What did she do with me?

The first thing that popped into my head was, "it's Carly Patterson's FX music" when I heard Kanako's intro and then it strangely reminded me of Mirai's "I Got Rhythm". Both have that energy and youthfullness about them.

aoi88 wrote:

Okay, I am going to rant a little about ISU and CoP. I always felt the ISU just chooses to do whatever they feel like. Before, they couldn't care less about edges or slight underrotations. It was all about having clean skates. But then they suddenly decide to take strict measures on these things and they particularly hammer certain skaters to serve as an example. In reality, it's really their fault because if they had installed these rules earlier, then the younger skaters wouldn't have learned those flawed technqiues or they would have corrected them immediately if they did learn since they know they will get hammered later on. Anyways, another thing that really bother me about these rules is that they don't even enforce them consistently. I mean how many times did we see Lysacek being rewarded for his 3A's? And also just because a skater does certain jumps very well doesn't mean they should be rewarded for all the jumps they do. But it seems if that not only does +Goe for good jumps extend to other jumps, they also get extended to other elements of the skater when they are quite average. The CoP states it promotes well-balanced programs and not only jumps blah blah blah. But in reality, they still just care about the jumps. They focus on different things (technique over difficulty) but in the end, it's still about the jumps.

Thank you. You made my toothache and heartache less agonizing. chineseteacup and I were kind of ragging on that too in the previous season. And now with the new rules, spirals aren't required and you don't have to sit in a sit spin. There I go again...1,2,3...I'm in a happy place, I'm in a happy place...

First of all, it's the first time seeing Mao's new SP for me (in rather good quality) *cheers*
I like the choreography and the whole programme in general and can't wait to see it in perfection.....
I could hardly bear seeing her so down She was looking so nervous from start to end...not to speak from the kiss & cry area....I hope she doesn't worry about it too much!
I guess we all know that it will become better throughout the season and no matter what we'll stand behind her.....against all bad talk

Whatever I'll get to see in the LP (she can land the jumps in practice, so with a bit of luck she'll land them today(?) as well), I am totally looking forward to this season! MAO ROCKS! (but I am hoping for a change in costume >___<)

linglang wrote:

I read a book of Mr. and Mrs. Sato. This book has many interesting points that reveal what Mr. Sato is. In a part where he talks about the time when he became Fumie Suguri's coach, he admits the hardest task for him was teaching jumps. Before Fumie came to Mr. Sato, she had already mastered lutz and flip but with different technique from Mr. Sato's. He wasn't quite sure where he should start with. If he did something wrong, he might spoil everything. Just being concerned about such risk, he says he wasn't able to give advice. He really wanted to say to her "do this way," but because of fear that his advice might ruin her, he wasn't able to say anything.

Then what he did? He carefully observed every movement Fumie made on the ice. After identifying points to be corrected, he gave his opinion to Fumie and got response from her. They made progress carefully -- observe carefully and analyze what happened to Fumie after his advice, how her jumps changed. By repeating a cycle of meticulous steps, he found the best and only solution and convinced Fumie.

I don't know if Mr. Sato uses this approach for Mao and, if he does so, whether it will work for Mao or this is an appropriate approach, especially after reading instake's input. I'm so much worried for Mao now.

I am worried about the changing technique issue which inskate has explained to us, but this insight into Coach Sato actually gives me a lot of hope--thank you linglang. What we are seeing now is only the beginning, guys. Mao has a tough road ahead of her, but I still believe she is in good hands. Sato has only begun to work with her, and is still learning about her skating and her as a person. Now is too early to judge.

I expected to see some rough performances these first couple of competitions, but I'm sad to see her make so many mistakes. As others have said she seemed hesitant and nervous, and obviously the mistakes on the jumps took some of the fire out of her program (though it was still very good, IMO). But hopefully she will fight back in the FS.

illani wrote:

linglang wrote:

I read a book of Mr. and Mrs. Sato. This book has many interesting points that reveal what Mr. Sato is. In a part where he talks about the time when he became Fumie Suguri's coach, he admits the hardest task for him was teaching jumps. Before Fumie came to Mr. Sato, she had already mastered lutz and flip but with different technique from Mr. Sato's. He wasn't quite sure where he should start with. If he did something wrong, he might spoil everything. Just being concerned about such risk, he says he wasn't able to give advice. He really wanted to say to her "do this way," but because of fear that his advice might ruin her, he wasn't able to say anything.

Then what he did? He carefully observed every movement Fumie made on the ice. After identifying points to be corrected, he gave his opinion to Fumie and got response from her. They made progress carefully -- observe carefully and analyze what happened to Fumie after his advice, how her jumps changed. By repeating a cycle of meticulous steps, he found the best and only solution and convinced Fumie.

I don't know if Mr. Sato uses this approach for Mao and, if he does so, whether it will work for Mao or this is an appropriate approach, especially after reading instake's input. I'm so much worried for Mao now.

I am worried about the changing technique issue which inskate has explained to us, but this insight into Coach Sato actually gives me a lot of hope--thank you linglang. What we are seeing now is only the beginning, guys. Mao has a tough road ahead of her, but I still believe she is in good hands. Sato has only begun to work with her, and is still learning about her skating and her as a person. Now is too early to judge.

I expected to see some rough performances these first couple of competitions, but I'm sad to see her make so many mistakes. As others have said she seemed hesitant and nervous, and obviously the mistakes on the jumps took some of the fire out of her program (though it was still very good, IMO). But hopefully she will fight back in the FS.

Yes I definitely agree. We should give it some time. Does anyone know when it will start? Japan time?

I read somewhere that Mao really likes the anime 'K-ON!' I love that anime too!
Something to throw out there...I guess.
Regarding today's performance, it reassures me that the jumping problems are still a problem. However I am glad that Sato is doing something about it. Last year, I felt a certain unease every time Mao jumped.

Rewatching the short program, it seems as if Mao was too close to the wall on her flip. It looked like she hesitated, and then decided not to do it. She probably would have hit the wall had she gone for the triple.

Also, she keeps getting level 3s on her spins because she holds her positions for 7 instead of 8. If she just held her last position in the combo spin and her first position in the flying spin for one more turn she would've gotten 4s on both. The layback was too slow so there was no way she was going to get a 4. I just hope she holds her spins tomorrow because she will need every point there is to make up those 11 points!!!

I found the protocols on goldenskate!

Carolina KOSTNER
https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img836/4060/58693103.jpg

Kanako MURAKAMI
https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img183/3600/87813362.jpg

Rachael FLATT
https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img213/702/32948903.jpg

Ashley WAGNER
https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img508/9331/56836456.jpg

Kiira KORPI
https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img259/5553/97961049.jpg

Caroline ZHANG
https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img230/4484/55434364.jpg

Jenna MCCORKELL
https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img706/123/39363158.jpg

Mao ASADA
https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img176/6109/77260515.jpg


mmmm it's strange that Mao's loop was cheated and that Kanako's 3-3 was cheated also..
Anyway good luck for tomorrow Mao !! I'll wake up early to watch her !

I can't stand this system. How come a skater who attemps a triple gets a so much inferior score than sb who goes for a double? If she had gone for a 2A I bet her score would've gotten around 5pts, as opposed to that 1,87.

I don't necessarily disagree with this emphasis on technique. And correct technique need not come at the expense of artistry. I think what we'll see from these stricter ISU guidelines is the emergence of a new class of skaters - only those with the perfect jumps and spins will reach the top, and then the rare few who possess both technique and artistry will dominate over the rest of the field.

But, for the older generation of skaters (my goodness, I can't believe I'm classifying Mao, at 20 years of age, as old!), the new rules really are sucking the fun out of skating.

I, for one, would rather see Mao skate in a way that is true to herself, wrong edges and all, than have this constant reminder of CORRECT TECHNIQUE CORRECT TECHNIQUE CORRECT TECHNIQUE hammering away at her consciousness.

But of course, something like that won't get you the gold medal. So I am in full support of what Mao and Coach Sato are doing with the reworking of her technique. Even if it costs Mao a few competitions at first, I believe that these changes are setting Mao up for a longer and more successful skating career in the long run.

On a lighter note - I'm lovin' the direction they're taking Mao's costumes. Love the cleaner silhouette (compared to, say, all lace and frills ). Although, I would like to see more colour.

Looking forward to seeing this program with all the elements in place! GO MAO!

chineseteacup wrote:

I, for one, would rather see Mao skate in a way that is true to herself, wrong edges and all, than have this constant reminder of CORRECT TECHNIQUE CORRECT TECHNIQUE CORRECT TECHNIQUE hammering away at her consciousness.

You're right. I feel a part of it is mental. Mao is too self-conscious about making mistakes (I think she even says this in a recent interview). I can imagine her going to a jump and thinking "I hope I don't make a mistake on this one!" But for jumps, one really needs to have a lot of confidence to perform them well in competition. I can understand why Mao lost her confidence. She was being hammered so much (and sometimes unfairly) by the system so it's natural she became more self-conscious about her jumps. I think things may be better if Mao can let go of some of the stress she's feeling but it's not easy given the expectations placed on her shoulders. She's in a really tough situation now but I agree for success in the long run, she has to adapt to this system. But for Mao to have correct technique and to regain her former confidence in her jumps is going to be a tough task. Hoping for the best in the end.

I know many people seem worried but don't worry! she can't be first all the time. And every Mao fans know that Mao struggle at the beginning of the season but become stronger and stronger as the season goes on!! Let's all cheer for her on the Long Program. It may be perferct, it may not, but she's so courageous to attempt a 3lutz and a 3salc (which she hasn't included in her programs last year)! And new long is a pure joy to watch So light !!