Gran Prix Final 2010 - 9-12 beijing

You guys summarized most of my thoughts in this competition.

Pochi, your post suddenly sparked a question in my head. It has something to with a skater's style. How would they nurture their talents and polish their skills while finding an identity? Could a skater be versatile and skate to any kind of music without being "forced?"

I know this is stupid, but I suddenly thought of Mao and Bells of Moscow. Even if she won OSM and Worlds with this program, it wasn't a good match. Everyone thought that she could only do soft, balletic pieces and if they are her strengths, I think Mao has to break free from them (we need to see a clean AgonyTango with the same passion as Por Una de Cabeza as of writing). Bells of Moscow is a good start, but did the music and Mao's skating clash to create the effect that it isn't a good choice for Mao?

The only skater that could skate to almost any kind of music without too much difficulty was Michelle Kwan, IMO. But then again, I have limited knowledge regarding FS history, so there may be other skaters who are just as versatile as Michelle.

Zijun excites me the most for now because she reminds me of a young Mao, but at the same time her EoE routine got me into thinking how different her interpretation and style really is. Liza is a performer with good, solid jumps while Adelina has enough skills to make her competitive in Seniors. Risa is good too, although she reminds me of an eerie cross between Shizuka and Alyssa.

linglang wrote:

Team Sato's banner

http://uproda.2ch-library.com/321979OoO/lib321979.jpg.

I think I need this in my bedroom.

linglang wrote:

Team Sato's banner

http://uproda.2ch-library.com/321979OoO/lib321979.jpg.

Reuploaded.
https://2img.net/h/oi51.tinypic.com/4g0jlf.jpg

Has anyone looked at the protocols?

In the SP, Akiko got an edge call for her lutz, but in the LP she got an edge call on her flip...

How could she have flutzed in the SP and gotten the flip right...and then lipped in the LP but gotten the lutz right?

I mean, I guess it's possible but just seems a little weird haha

klarification wrote:

You guys summarized most of my thoughts in this competition.

Pochi, your post suddenly sparked a question in my head. It has something to with a skater's style. How would they nurture their talents and polish their skills while finding an identity? Could a skater be versatile and skate to any kind of music without being "forced?"

I know this is stupid, but I suddenly thought of Mao and Bells of Moscow. Even if she won OSM and Worlds with this program, it wasn't a good match. Everyone thought that she could only do soft, balletic pieces and if they are her strengths, I think Mao has to break free from them (we need to see a clean AgonyTango with the same passion as Por Una de Cabeza as of writing). Bells of Moscow is a good start, but did the music and Mao's skating clash to create the effect that it isn't a good choice for Mao?

The only skater that could skate to almost any kind of music without too much difficulty was Michelle Kwan, IMO. But then again, I have limited knowledge regarding FS history, so there may be other skaters who are just as versatile as Michelle.

Zijun excites me the most for now because she reminds me of a young Mao, but at the same time her EoE routine got me into thinking how different her interpretation and style really is. Liza is a performer with good, solid jumps while Adelina has enough skills to make her competitive in Seniors. Risa is good too, although she reminds me of an eerie cross between Shizuka and Alyssa.

Sasha Cohen. As a fan of rock music, I think she is the only one who can skate to the rock music, she has fire, she's maybe the most fierce skater from the ladies ever. But she's capable of doing lyrical, dramatic, soft,any kind of programs. And to my point of view Sasha's much more versatile then Michelle.

polosatik, i agree! i may be one of the few who prefer sasha's skating over michelle's. i find sasha's style much more captivating. if only she were more accurate with her jumps. but i love her so much and she's my favorite american skater. don't hate me for this, but i think in comparison, michelle isn't so artistic... she's just safe. but she's still great, too.

I loved Narumi's and Mervin's ex today, they are so energetic! Vasya was surprised by their happiness, but of course he loved them too. TAT called them the first REAL pair skaters from Japan.

swan wrote:

polosatik, i agree! i may be one of the few who prefer sasha's skating over michelle's. i find sasha's style much more captivating. if only she were more accurate with her jumps. but i love her so much and she's my favorite american skater. don't hate me for this, but i think in comparison, michelle isn't so artistic... she's just safe. but she's still great, too.

I respect Michelle, she's no doubt a legend of figure skating. But for me Sasha is better and she's my favourite american lady skater too. Sasha always had such an amazing presence on the ice, it's unmatched.

polosatik wrote:

If some of you guys are interested what TAT said about Kanako during her Free skate, here are some summaries.


Kanako gains speed very well
Kanako jumps like Mao do, TAT said their jumps looks very similar( because of the same coach)
TAT liked the beginning of the footwork,but in the middle part she found her technique not good, but good twizzles and good impression overall

transitions are pretty simple but performs with good speed and fire.
Tat talked about Machiko's illness
lutz is absolutely the same as Mao's
Tat said that fixing the lutz is very hard thing to do, when you're trying to do it you're destroying the whole jump. ( I guess this is important, because there she talked about Mao's situation)

Thanks Polosatik for the translation.

Pochi you made me laugh when you say you even miss Yuna....ladies competitions must be really boring for you too...lol

I'm also another one who's not that impressed by Kanako's skating. I've been watching many times but I still don't know why. Maybe like you guys, I'm just spoiled by MAO.

Come back MAO ! miss you !!!!

klarification wrote:

Pochi, your post suddenly sparked a question in my head. It has something to with a skater's style. How would they nurture their talents and polish their skills while finding an identity? Could a skater be versatile and skate to any kind of music without being "forced?"

Difficult question to answer...Firstly, I agree with polosatik that Sasha is a very good example of a skater who can skate to any kind of music. I suppose any skater can skate to anything if they try, but I guess the question simply is whether they can truely handle the music and make the pro something unique and completed as their own creation. Sasha is one who can skate to rock, classic, jazz or probabaly whatever, and make you think 'Only Sasha can do this!'. Of course it doesn't mean Sasha is the only one who can skate to various genres of music, but she can adapt to all kinds of music, but at the same time express it in her own unique way. She won't force the music to fit herself, but she won't force herself to fit the music either.

I think Sasha is capable to do this not just because she has great techs, artistry, dancing talent...the usual stuff which would be required from a top skater. I think it's also because she is a good actress on ice. Yuna is close to her in this sense I think. Being a good actress doesn't mean you can simply act. Flatt acts on ice alot too, but I don't think she's much of a good actress. It's kind of like Sasha and Yuna have their own individuality or say originality; a color of their own. They can act out a certain character or music, but at the same time paint it into their own color without killing the essence. And I suppose this 'color' thing I'm referring to is what can be defined as the 'style' I was talking about in my former post.

So style doesn't necessarily have to be accompanied by the same kind of music or pro. For instance, Robert De Niro can act out superior mafia figures, but that doesn't mean that's all he can do. He can also be a great taxi driver. But there are probabaly some characters which won't fit him as well as Al Capone or Travis Bickle. His acting skills are more than capable of playing any character, but his style won't shine that much if he is given a role which is too far away from it. I think that was the case with Mao's 'Bells'. She captured the music brilliantly by the end of the season, but most of us felt it wasn't the ideal kind of pro that would bring out the best in her style of skating which we were used to and loved so much. We can even imagine Yuna's more dramatic style of skating might have created a better appealing 'Bells' pro. But this would be possible only if provided the choreo was done by Wilson not Tat. I think it's more a matter of choreo when it comes to what makes a skater's style shine or not rather than the music. So all the same, I think Mao can perform a great Gershwin, but not with the same pro Yuna is skating to.

In Kanako's case, I personally think her way of expressing the throbbing pulse of her life and youth has already become a style of her own. If she can keep her stamina, and improve her skills, this style of hers' will become even more appealing than now. But if she gets older and loses stamina, and doesn't improve her skills more than now, this style of hers will probabaly dry out, her cute smile and lively moves will only look childish. So, what I wish for Kanako is to sublimate her liveliness and energy into something with more mature artistry. If she can manage that, she can be appealing as any skater who has the elegance she doesn't have. Skaters like Sasha are very rare. She can do various things at top level which is brilliant, but I don't think that necessarily has to be the case with all skaters. Yuna made the best out of her skills by enhancing her talents as a performer, while Mao is trying to make the best out of her skills by challenging tougher pros. Skaters can all take different approaches in perfecting their own styles.

However, once thing I'm sure of is that good basic skills can never be ignored in the process of perfecting a style or finding an identity. Even if somebody resembles Al Capone, that doesn't mean he can act out a good Capone like De Niro. You'd definitely need good acting skills which he has, to perform the perfect Capone. I think one of the reasons Flatt isn't so successful this season is because she rushed in to create her style without achieving the basic skills well beforehand. That's why she probabaly looks like Yuna without great jumps and appeal. First you complete your basics, make them solid to a certain level, than you should figure out what only you can do with them. The other way around wouldn't work out IMO.

I also think, styles as in identity or originality, isn't something you can actually create by aiming to do so. That's why Mao didn't become the second Midori, Yuna not the second Kwan, and Kanako is never going to be the second Mao. Style is something you are born with in addition with what you naturally grow to become. So everybody has a uniquness whether your conscious of it or not. But you need skills to make it become a style. Mao was fortunate and talented to have her light smooth fairy like style to develop naturally at an early age. I think most of us noticed it from the start. But I think it usually takes more time and experience for most skaters to develop their uniquness as much for people to notice and appreciate it, and for them to realize it themselves. In Mao's case, everyone but her notices and appreciates her style maybe! Yuna's style started developing a little bit later than Mao, but she too was fortunate and talented to have her skills constructed by Orser and her style recognized and formed by the help of Wilson at the same time. Miki had good skills for a very long time, but she was one who had trouble finding her style until she met Morozov. Although she skated well from an early stage, she didn't have much appeal until her uniqueness was shaped by Morozov's choreo. And at this point, she has pretty much perfected her style, so most of us don't think 'Oh, that's so Morozov' when we see her skate, but we feel 'Oh, that's so Miki'. Now that she is at that kind of level, nobody can skate like Miki. Although she may be a bit passed her physical peak, I think that's why she's still appealing to those who like her style. Btw, I think Miki too can adapt to quite a wide variety of music, except for something too balletic. I think that's why she changed her 'Giselle' to a Saint-Saëns' piece in 08-09 season saying the latter pro was more like herself, and that was a wise choice made by a mature skater who knows her identity; what she can do naturally well and be comfortable and confident with. On the other hand, Dai who has perfected his style as much as Miki decided to skate to an EX choreoed by Lambiel this season, saying he wants to become capable of skating various types of pros. He skates it well, but it's obviously too Lambiel than Dai, so it doesn't really make him shine much. I do think it's good to try out new and different stuff, but some things you simply cannot do best. Likewise, Kanako I think can never be the best elegant skater even if she tried. But I see potential in her to become the best energetic skater, that's why I want her to pursue that kind of style rather than elegant. Some people will not like her skating because it's not elegant, but some people will love her skating because it's energetic.

As I mentioned before, Mao had developed a brilliant style of skating when she was quite young, we all love it, but Mao herself probabaly doesn't think much of it as we do. She's a natural born artist, but has the mind of a total athlete. (In comparison, I think Kwan was a natural born athlete, but had the mind of an artist.) I think Mao's athlete brain cells made her focus on reforming her jumps this season, which is necessary I guess. But I hope after she finishes doing that, she'd recognize the true beauty and worth of her skating style, and consciously perfect it into Miki and Dai's levels as well as her jumping skills.

Feel so terrible about this long post...thanks those who took the trouble to read it.

PochinkoPotanko wrote:

As I mentioned before, Mao had developed a brilliant style of skating when she was quite young, we all love it, but Mao herself probabaly doesn't think much of it as we do. She's a natural born artist, but has the mind of a total athlete. (In comparison, I think Kwan was a natural born athlete, but had the mind of an artist.) I think Mao's athlete brain cells made her focus on reforming her jumps this season, which is necessary I guess. But I hope after she finishes doing that, she'd recognize the true beauty and worth of her skating style, and consciously perfect it into Miki and Dai's levels as well as her jumping skills. Feel so terrible about this long post...thanks those who took the trouble to read it.

Excellently said Pochi! As a fan of MK, I never really saw her in that way but now that I think about it, Michelle does have an ideal body of an athlete. In terms of build, she's similar to Joannie. But everyone sees her as an artistic skater (in contrast to Irina) because of the artistic vision that runs through her programs. However, Mao is really like a ballerina: fragile but strong at the same time. I feel one reason why we fans may see other skaters' expressions as being a little fake is because Mao does them so naturally. I feel Mao can potentially be the most artistic skater because she's already so good without even being aware of her artistic instincts. That's why I am frustrated that she hasn't found a choreographer that will help her reach her potential artistically. Lori is good but she tends to let Mao remain in her comfort zone, while TAT pushes Mao a little too far from her comfort zone. It would be good if Mao can find a choreographer that can find a balance between highlighting her essential qualities while also pushing her in new directions. I would be delighted if Mao could work with a Japanese choreographer like Kenji Miyamato or Yuka Sato (Sato-san should give his daughter a call these days!). I also think Lambiel would be an interesting choice. His program for Dai didn't really work for me but I thought the feminine style would have been a much better fit for Mao.

aoi88 wrote:

PochinkoPotanko wrote:

As I mentioned before, Mao had developed a brilliant style of skating when she was quite young, we all love it, but Mao herself probabaly doesn't think much of it as we do. She's a natural born artist, but has the mind of a total athlete. (In comparison, I think Kwan was a natural born athlete, but had the mind of an artist.) I think Mao's athlete brain cells made her focus on reforming her jumps this season, which is necessary I guess. But I hope after she finishes doing that, she'd recognize the true beauty and worth of her skating style, and consciously perfect it into Miki and Dai's levels as well as her jumping skills. Feel so terrible about this long post...thanks those who took the trouble to read it.

Excellently said Pochi! As a fan of MK, I never really saw her in that way but now that I think about it, Michelle does have an ideal body of an athlete. In terms of build, she's similar to Joannie. But everyone sees her as an artistic skater (in contrast to Irina) because of the artistic vision that runs through her programs. However, Mao is really like a ballerina: fragile but strong at the same time. I feel one reason why we fans may see other skaters' expressions as being a little fake is because Mao does them so naturally. I feel Mao can potentially be the most artistic skater because she's already so good without even being aware of her artistic instincts. That's why I am frustrated that she hasn't found a choreographer that will help her reach her potential artistically. Lori is good but she tends to let Mao remain in her comfort zone, while TAT pushes Mao a little too far from her comfort zone. It would be good if Mao can find a choreographer that can find a balance between highlighting her essential qualities while also pushing her in new directions. I would be delighted if Mao could work with a Japanese choreographer like Kenji Miyamato or Yuka Sato (Sato-san should give his daughter a call these days!). I also think Lambiel would be an interesting choice. His program for Dai didn't really work for me but I thought the feminine style would have been a much better fit for Mao.

That's absolutely what Mao needs! Lori and Tat do make great pros for her, but I think they've been doing choreo for Mao for a long time now, and are having a hard time coming up with new moves which will make her shine more. I love both their pros, but I feel there's still something missing to make Mao shine as bright as a star. A pro which wouldn't ruin her soft light skating like Lori's, but at the same time make us feel her passion and strengh both mentally and physically like Tat's. I'm thinking Miyamoto or Camerlengo might be good candidates. In anycase, I think Mao should try new choreographers. But those choreographers must consider Mao's style when they create her pros. They shouldn't make the kind of pro which is more the choreographers' style too much like Dai's Lambiel EX. Mao has 2 faces; a hungry athlete in seek of powerful and higher skills, and an unconcsious balletic artist who is soft enough as if she can control gravity. These are very different aspects in one skater. The choreographer will have a hard time creating a pro which can combine both. But I think something like Akiko's 'Fiddler on the Roof' pro by Carmerlengo, with a bit more balletic taste might work. It might be good for Mao to skate to music edited by a number of songs from a musical or movie as well as ballet. In that way, it would be easier to show both sides of her style, and they would have more impact in comparison. Although it was different from her original style, I very much liked the strength and determination Mao expressed in 'Bells', so I personally would like her to keep that side of her as well as her soft balletic beauty. Ballet itself isn't always just soft and gracious, so I think it's possible.

I wish Mao someday will skate to Joe Hisaishi, no matter who will be the choreographer,his music suit Mao like a glove.

polosatik wrote:

I wish Mao someday will skate to Joe Hisaishi, no matter who will be the choreographer,his music suit Mao like a glove.

Yea. I am waiting for Mao to skate to Joe Hisaishi one day!

ETA: http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2010/12/morozombie-christmas-wishlist-menfolk.html#more

Hilarious post on the GPF men. There's a little mention of Mao in the Armin section.

From Akiko's tweet

http://yfrog.com/gydufxj

She says "three princes from Japan before the Finale practice."

linglang wrote:

From Akiko's tweet

http://yfrog.com/gydufxj

She says "three princes from Japan before the Finale practice."

Bahahaha, Aikiko is hilarious!!!!!

polosatik wrote:

linglang wrote:

From Akiko's tweet

http://yfrog.com/gydufxj

She says "three princes from Japan before the Finale practice."

Bahahaha, Aikiko is hilarious!!!!!

I didn't know Akiko had twitter! So now both Miki and Akiko have accounts there.. maybe they will advise Mao to get one And of course the three princes should tweet too!

I didnt knew akiko had an account in twitter, i just have miki and shizuka from japan in there, i will sure follow her also

aoi88 wrote:

ETA: http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2010/12/morozombie-christmas-wishlist-menfolk.html#more

Hilarious post on the GPF men. There's a little mention of Mao in the Armin section.

Thanks for that aoi88, I needed a good laugh!

kaarolcia wrote:

polosatik wrote:

linglang wrote:

From Akiko's tweet

http://yfrog.com/gydufxj

She says "three princes from Japan before the Finale practice."

Bahahaha, Aikiko is hilarious!!!!!

I didn't know Akiko had twitter! So now both Miki and Akiko have accounts there.. maybe they will advise Mao to get one And of course the three princes should tweet too!

Just found out Dai has one http://twitter.com/#!/D1sk61316

illani wrote:

aoi88 wrote:

ETA: http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2010/12/morozombie-christmas-wishlist-menfolk.html#more

Hilarious post on the GPF men. There's a little mention of Mao in the Armin section.

Thanks for that aoi88, I needed a good laugh!

Here's Part II (the Ladies!) http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2010/12/morozombie-christmas-wishlist-ladies.html

I cracked up at the Mirai one. His gift for Mao was rather sweet though.

aoi88 wrote:

illani wrote:

aoi88 wrote:

ETA: http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2010/12/morozombie-christmas-wishlist-menfolk.html#more

Hilarious post on the GPF men. There's a little mention of Mao in the Armin section.

Thanks for that aoi88, I needed a good laugh!

Here's Part II (the Ladies!) http://morozombie.blogspot.com/2010/12/morozombie-christmas-wishlist-ladies.html

I cracked up at the Mirai one. His gift for Mao was rather sweet though.

So funny. I agreed with a lot of what he said actually. I love Mao's gift too. Very uncharacteristically sentimental, but really nice, indeed. (Cough I hope Taka will give her this gift in real life cough)

Thanks bibi, ill follow him too, i hope mao makes one

Here are some previous articles/interviews on Liza.

http://www.goldenskate.com/articles/2010/082910.shtml

In this article, she says she admires Plushy the most. She also admires Yuna and Mao, BUT she makes it clear that they are not her idols.

"They are not my idols, though," Tuktamysheva stressed. "I don't want to compare myself to others, I want to be myself and I don't want to be like anyone else." (Golden Skate)


http://worldskating.blogspot.com/2010/10/elizaveta-tuktamisheva-we-have-to.html

And here's her answer to this question: The Russian single lady’s skating (senior) for quite some time has a certain gap. I mean victories at the big competitions. Do you have plans to change this situation?

A: Yes, of course, I have these plans-). Unfortunately my age doesn't allow it yet. (Worldskating blog). She is so young but so fierce! I wish we had some english articles on Adelina because seeing her command on the ice, I feel she is also pretty fierce as well. Can't wait for these two to enter seniors!

I love Alissa's spins and I think she's a wonderful artist, but I would give Kanako the gold I think her SP was the best and she should have been first after it. She doesn't have maturity yet, but even though that I think she should have got higher PCS. How does it possible Alissa got more points for choreography than her? Her program was so boooring compared to Kanako's.

On the other hand I'm happy of her high placement, I hope she will go for worlds with Mirai