Four Continents (4CC) 2011 - Taipei

maofan93 wrote:

I don't think there's a link yet, because it "premiered" tonight (LOL just a little late...).

Yes, periperi, I do enjoy Tara's commentary. She always finds something nice to say about the skaters, doesn't compare them to other skaters, etc. I hate it when the entire time one skater is skating, the commentators are talking about another skater.

First, they talked about her triple axel struggles, and then she nailed it, so they were "wowed". After her lutz, Tara was talking about how landing those three jumps was really great for Mao. They didn't really say much until the two-footed sal, which they called a small mistake. In the footwork they said she looked more relaxed and happy than previous seasons/performances. Then at the end they commented on her smile . Finally in the K&C they were very excited to hear the scores, which they expected to be high. IMO they thought she was going to beat Miki in at least the freeskate if not the whole competition.

Tidbit from my mom: How did she not win? (Damn SP!!! She better nail it a worlds )

Thanks for the info! That's great to hear! I can't wait for when the video eventually gets uploaded. This aired *just* a little late eh

I love Tara as well!
Actually she really loves Asada and said it in many interviews...
It all stemmed from the issue of not allowing Mao in 2006 Olympics -
and she somewhat took a very positive side for Mao - (being herself the youngest medalist)
and said as much that she understood what Mao is going through right now!

I prefer her than the other lady - the one who was with her during worlds 2010 FP!
She sounds technically more sure - but ...
At times she gets on my nerve!!

Darn I can't watch Universal Sports. CBC's supposed to broadcast it next weekend. I do hope they show more than the ice dance event this time (that's what they did in February).

For those interested, CBC showed a 3 hour special two days ago featuring interviews with Yuka Sato, Alissa and Jeremy, tidbits on Miki and Takahashi/Tran, etc., the podium performances at Worlds 2010, reports on Canadian skaters leading up to Worlds 2011 and interviews with a SC official. If you're not geoblocked, here it is:

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Sports/Championship_Figure_Skating_on_CBC/Full_Events/1325617380/ID=1858920081

The intro with Yuka and comments from the skaters... it's really nice to hear from them. I had no idea Narumi and Mervin were in Japan when the earthwquake struck. If you're interested, this broadcast is really 3hrs long and you need Microsoft Silverlight for the Website to work adequatly. I also think it runs better on Internet Explorer than on Firefox.

I think Tara's opinion of Mao became more favorable when she learned that Mao was inspired by her Olympic performance. Before that, her comments leaned more towards Yuna. Mao was inspired by Tara, while Yuna was inspired by Michelle. It seems they were destined to become rivals!
I realize that many commentators will come to appreciate Mao once they start to just focus on watching her performances. Of course, there are a few (i.e. Scott Hamilton, those German commentators) who can't look past the rivalry and see the skater for her own qualities. But like skaters, there are good commentators and there are bad ones.

Here's a link to the FP:
http://www.universalsports.com/video/assetid=e5da964b-9770-4d2c-bbf0-020be0d88797.html#2011+four+continents+dance+ladies+free

Ladies starts about halfway through, but Mao skated last so you have to scroll towards the end (1:18 ish)

maofan93 wrote:

Here's a link to the FP:
http://www.universalsports.com/video/assetid=e5da964b-9770-4d2c-bbf0-020be0d88797.html#2011+four+continents+dance+ladies+free

Ladies starts about halfway through, but Mao skated last so you have to scroll towards the end (1:18 ish)

Thanks! I liked their comments except the part where Tara said that she didn't see any major changes in Mao's jumping technique. But I've learned that we can't trust the commentators too much on spotting technique. I remember Peggy couldn't tell if Mao flutzed at times.

I canøt acces the video on universal sport is there other links somewhere?

ballerinamao wrote:

I canøt acces the video on universal sport is there other links somewhere?

Me neither. I hope somebody will upload it on YT eventually.

Oh yeah. I forgot about that little part in which Tara said that. I'm truly baffled as to why so many people can't tell the difference in Mao's jumps. The changes really aren't all that subtle. Her back is significantly more upright and her leg position is obviously less of a hammer toe on her flip. I guess the changes aren't as drastically obvious as CaroZ's flip jump, but still...

periperi wrote:

Oh yeah. I forgot about that little part in which Tara said that. I'm truly baffled as to why so many people can't tell the difference in Mao's jumps. The changes really aren't all that subtle. Her back is significantly more upright and her leg position is obviously less of a hammer toe on her flip. I guess the changes aren't as drastically obvious as CaroZ's flip jump, but still...

I think part of the reason is due to the fact that problems in Mao's jumps weren't that drastic to begin with, compared to someone like Zhang. The only real obvious issue is her flutz, but she is far from the only skater who has this problem. Her jumping issues were magnified mostly by online critics. IMO. Many commentators were actually puzzled by her choice to go back to the basics for her jumps. The changes in her flip becomes quite obvious if you follow her skating closely. When you compare to her past performances, the difference is clear. However, I think the real difference lies in the overall feeling of her jumps. They appear to be lighter, whereas the ones she did last season felt a bit heavy and strained.

periperi wrote:

Oh yeah. I forgot about that little part in which Tara said that. I'm truly baffled as to why so many people can't tell the difference in Mao's jumps. The changes really aren't all that subtle. Her back is significantly more upright and her leg position is obviously less of a hammer toe on her flip. I guess the changes aren't as drastically obvious as CaroZ's flip jump, but still...

I think that it's partially caused by the fact that a lot of commentators / coaches / fans are still stuck in the 6.0 mentality. The approach to the "cleanness" of the jumps used to be quite different, not only because of the judging system, but also because of the changes in technology.
Today we are spoiled by the wonders of the Internet, downloadable videos and the ability to replay the performances in slow-mo or frame-by frame. We can scrutinize jumps in the tiniest details, compare the success rate and the jumping prowess of the skaters who jump using one method to the skaters who jump in a different way.

In the old days, even the judges didn't have the luxury of an instant slow-mo replay. In result, such details as the edging or the body position on the take-off or landing weren't scrutinized. If the jump was landed and looked pretty, it was considered a good jump. What's more, the jumping layouts weren't as difficult as they are now, so the 'flaws' in technique didn't hold back the skaters enough to make their coaches start thinking "Hmm. Something isn't right here.".And the skaters who grown up in this mentality eventually became coaches and passed on their approach to jumping to their pupils.

I'm reminded of Dick Button's commentary during Sasha's programs. He called her jumps "exquisite" and really swooned over them, but the fact is that Sasha had (from today's perspective) a lot of issues with her toe jumps: a hammer toe possibly more prominent than Mao's, shaky edge on both flip and lutz, and somewhat wild landings.
Was Uncle Dick's commentary biased? In this case I don't think so - he simply looked at Sasha's jumps from his own perspective. In his time a lady who had all the triples would already be considered a jumping phenom, and such things as a hammer toe weren't even considered a technique flaw.

But looking at Sasha's career now one wonders what would she accomplish should her jumping technique was fixed in her childhood. She had pretty good rotational speed and balance - who knows, maybe she would be able to land consistent 3-3s or even a quad Sal (which she used to practice).

I was just rewatching Mao's older performances - the ones from her junior career and the 06-07 season. I was surprised how noticeable the hammer toe was back then - and yet, not one commentator mentioned it, everyone just swooned over how great a jumper she was. For that matter, nobody mentioned the flutz, either - not until CoP started punishing it.

So, I'm thinking, some of the commentators simply don't have their eyes trained to perceive some things as a technique flaw, and so they don't notice if the skater has been working on it, unless the flaw is REALLY noticeable (a'la Caro-Z's 'mule kick'), or punished by CoP (lips/flutzes recently).

That said, I really hope that clean technique will get recognized and encouraged by commentators and coaches... It's sad to see the skaters struggle because in their youth they were taught to jump in a 'flawed' way.

Okami wrote:

periperi wrote:

Oh yeah. I forgot about that little part in which Tara said that. I'm truly baffled as to why so many people can't tell the difference in Mao's jumps. The changes really aren't all that subtle. Her back is significantly more upright and her leg position is obviously less of a hammer toe on her flip. I guess the changes aren't as drastically obvious as CaroZ's flip jump, but still...

I think that it's partially caused by the fact that a lot of commentators / coaches / fans are still stuck in the 6.0 mentality. The approach to the "cleanness" of the jumps used to be quite different, not only because of the judging system, but also because of the changes in technology.
Today we are spoiled by the wonders of the Internet, downloadable videos and the ability to replay the performances in slow-mo or frame-by frame. We can scrutinize jumps in the tiniest details, compare the success rate and the jumping prowess of the skaters who jump using one method to the skaters who jump in a different way.

In the old days, even the judges didn't have the luxury of an instant slow-mo replay. In result, such details as the edging or the body position on the take-off or landing weren't scrutinized. If the jump was landed and looked pretty, it was considered a good jump. What's more, the jumping layouts weren't as difficult as they are now, so the 'flaws' in technique didn't hold back the skaters enough to make their coaches start thinking "Hmm. Something isn't right here.".And the skaters who grown up in this mentality eventually became coaches and passed on their approach to jumping to their pupils.

I'm reminded of Dick Button's commentary during Sasha's programs. He called her jumps "exquisite" and really swooned over them, but the fact is that Sasha had (from today's perspective) a lot of issues with her toe jumps: a hammer toe possibly more prominent than Mao's, shaky edge on both flip and lutz, and somewhat wild landings.
Was Uncle Dick's commentary biased? In this case I don't think so - he simply looked at Sasha's jumps from his own perspective. In his time a lady who had all the triples would already be considered a jumping phenom, and such things as a hammer toe weren't even considered a technique flaw.

But looking at Sasha's career now one wonders what would she accomplish should her jumping technique was fixed in her childhood. She had pretty good rotational speed and balance - who knows, maybe she would be able to land consistent 3-3s or even a quad Sal (which she used to practice).

I was just rewatching Mao's older performances - the ones from her junior career and the 06-07 season. I was surprised how noticeable the hammer toe was back then - and yet, not one commentator mentioned it, everyone just swooned over how great a jumper she was. For that matter, nobody mentioned the flutz, either - not until CoP started punishing it.

So, I'm thinking, some of the commentators simply don't have their eyes trained to perceive some things as a technique flaw, and so they don't notice if the skater has been working on it, unless the flaw is REALLY noticeable (a'la Caro-Z's 'mule kick'), or punished by CoP (lips/flutzes recently).

That said, I really hope that clean technique will get recognized and encouraged by commentators and coaches... It's sad to see the skaters struggle because in their youth they were taught to jump in a 'flawed' way.

I completely agree with this statement. In all honesty, the only jumps that look different SO FAR, are her flip, axel, and sal. The flip because of the back/leg position on the toe in, the axel because of the shorter set up, looks less strained, more speed, etc., and the sal because of the change in entrance. I bet you anything that if Mao went into the flip with a 3-turn instead of her usual mowhawk, everyone would notice the change because it was a significant difference. IMO, her jumps now look more like they did in 05-06, before the growth spurt. Either way, unless you are looking very carefully or comparing a jump from last year to a jump from this year side-by-side, you may not really notice a difference.

Those are a lot of super great points- aoi, Okami, and maofan!
Your guys' analyses gave me a lot of insight to the changes in Mao's technique and why it may have gone unnoticed.

So, so far, in a nutshell: Mao's technique wasn't as funky as Caroline's to begin with; ease and flow of jumps is more holistic; the new scoring system is comprised of a much different rubric than the 6.0 system; advancement in technology enables a different vantage point; differences in perception; and subtle adjustments are more susceptible to go undetected than prominent ones like changing the entry of a jump.

But I'm with you, periperi! I think the evolution of Mao's jumps are significant. And I was also a little to Tara's comment, myself. As you said, her posture is much more upright and her kick isn't as high as it was before. I guess, we as fans, are naturally more alert to anything that concerns Mao and Tara was looking at things much more broadly.

You know what struck me was that Mao's placement of her toe pick in her lutz and flip is a lot less wide and more aligned with her other leg compared to her old technique. I think that's why her lutz has been improving so much because before she would place the toe pick waaay to the right of her left hip and her weight would just shift causing her edge to go on from the outside to inside.

does anyone know if there is any other link, where I can see mao's performance with english commentary...

Yay they FINALLY aired this competition! I still have to watch it on my dvr.... Won't be able to do it for a few days cause my sisters staying with me right now, and it would be pretty rude of me to watch hours of figure skating while she's here (yep, she's not a skating fan) . At least I already know who wins...

Okami wrote:

ballerinamao wrote:

I canøt acces the video on universal sport is there other links somewhere?

Me neither. I hope somebody will upload it on YT eventually.

NBC/ Universal sports videos rarely make it on YT. And if they do, they are flagged right away .

Okami wrote:

periperi wrote:

Oh yeah. I forgot about that little part in which Tara said that. I'm truly baffled as to why so many people can't tell the difference in Mao's jumps. The changes really aren't all that subtle. Her back is significantly more upright and her leg position is obviously less of a hammer toe on her flip. I guess the changes aren't as drastically obvious as CaroZ's flip jump, but still...

I think that it's partially caused by the fact that a lot of commentators / coaches / fans are still stuck in the 6.0 mentality. The approach to the "cleanness" of the jumps used to be quite different, not only because of the judging system, but also because of the changes in technology.
Today we are spoiled by the wonders of the Internet, downloadable videos and the ability to replay the performances in slow-mo or frame-by frame. We can scrutinize jumps in the tiniest details, compare the success rate and the jumping prowess of the skaters who jump using one method to the skaters who jump in a different way.

In the old days, even the judges didn't have the luxury of an instant slow-mo replay. In result, such details as the edging or the body position on the take-off or landing weren't scrutinized. If the jump was landed and looked pretty, it was considered a good jump. What's more, the jumping layouts weren't as difficult as they are now, so the 'flaws' in technique didn't hold back the skaters enough to make their coaches start thinking "Hmm. Something isn't right here.".And the skaters who grown up in this mentality eventually became coaches and passed on their approach to jumping to their pupils.

I'm reminded of Dick Button's commentary during Sasha's programs. He called her jumps "exquisite" and really swooned over them, but the fact is that Sasha had (from today's perspective) a lot of issues with her toe jumps: a hammer toe possibly more prominent than Mao's, shaky edge on both flip and lutz, and somewhat wild landings.
Was Uncle Dick's commentary biased? In this case I don't think so - he simply looked at Sasha's jumps from his own perspective. In his time a lady who had all the triples would already be considered a jumping phenom, and such things as a hammer toe weren't even considered a technique flaw.

But looking at Sasha's career now one wonders what would she accomplish should her jumping technique was fixed in her childhood. She had pretty good rotational speed and balance - who knows, maybe she would be able to land consistent 3-3s or even a quad Sal (which she used to practice).

I was just rewatching Mao's older performances - the ones from her junior career and the 06-07 season. I was surprised how noticeable the hammer toe was back then - and yet, not one commentator mentioned it, everyone just swooned over how great a jumper she was. For that matter, nobody mentioned the flutz, either - not until CoP started punishing it.

So, I'm thinking, some of the commentators simply don't have their eyes trained to perceive some things as a technique flaw, and so they don't notice if the skater has been working on it, unless the flaw is REALLY noticeable (a'la Caro-Z's 'mule kick'), or punished by CoP (lips/flutzes recently).

That said, I really hope that clean technique will get recognized and encouraged by commentators and coaches... It's sad to see the skaters struggle because in their youth they were taught to jump in a 'flawed' way.

I pretty much agree with everything you said here, except for Mr. Button. I remember that Dick was always frustrated with the common occurrence of flutzing in the ladies competitions and was particularly critical of U.S. ladies (he never failed to mention Jenny Kirk's flutz) and frequently brought up Sarah Hughe's hammer toe. But when it came to Sasha both he and Peggy rarely had anything bad to say other than expressing frustration over her little mistakes here and there. Dick rarely called Sasha out on her flutzing, and I don't recall him ever mentioning Sasha's hammer toe. For all the praise that went to MK's edges, they ignored that Sasha lacked them. Dick really knew his stuff, throwing skating terms I'd never heard of left and right, so I have the feeling he was definitely a bit biased.

Peggy, on the other hand, never caught any flutzing or lipping...EVER. If anything, I always got the impression that Peggy hated every time Dick so much as mentioned the word flutz.

Edit: Oh, and as for the last paragraph in your post, I could not agree any more with this. I think you're right about coaches teaching their students flawed technique because it worked for others in the past. I had this impression that students with flawed technique early in their careers were allowed to get away with it because it would bring early and faster success while their bodies were still small and could rotate faster. Either way, it was hard for me not to get mad every time I saw CaroZ mule kicking her flips and lutzes. She's going in the right direction now but so much pain could have been avoided had she been taught proper technique and basics skating skills from the start. I really feel there needs to be some kind of wake up call. There needs to be more emphasis on edging and basic skating skills (especially with the ladies; the top men are doing great in that aspect). It'll make the crazy jump combos easier to pull off, help with speed and just make skaters overall more appealing on the ice.

Ah...Uncle Dick. I miss him, but I have to admit that he was not without bias. He appreciated good line and flexibility (and especially a good, classic layback spin—I swear he'd either praise or (mostly) gripe about the layback position during every performance in the ladies event). I think other qualities (edges, jump technique, etc.) tended to take a back seat to whether he liked the layback or how high she could hold the free leg in the spiral (and god forbid the skater choose a catchfoot or catchleg spiral! ). These are qualities I appreciate as well, but he could get fixated on them to the exclusion of all else.

Sasha was a combination of all these things he looked for most in a skater. Her posture, her flexibility...not to mention the fire and spunk she was capable of. The way I see it, she was basically Uncle Dick's dream of a perfect skater, and so he overlooked her flaws.

But I still miss him. And Sasha.

illani wrote:

Ah...Uncle Dick. I miss him, but I have to admit that he was not without bias. He appreciated good line and flexibility (and especially a good, classic layback spin—I swear he'd either praise or (mostly) gripe about the layback position during every performance in the ladies event). I think other qualities (edges, jump technique, etc.) tended to take a back seat to whether he liked the layback or how high she could hold the free leg in the spiral (and god forbid the skater choose a catchfoot or catchleg spiral! ). These are qualities I appreciate as well, but he could get fixated on them to the exclusion of all else.

Sasha was a combination of all these things he looked for most in a skater. Her posture, her flexibility...not to mention the fire and spunk she was capable of. The way I see it, she was basically Uncle Dick's dream of a perfect skater, and so he overlooked her flaws.

But I still miss him. And Sasha.

He also seemed to take a liking to Mao, especially during her 2008 worlds SP. I think if he were commenting at worlds, he would like her even more, especially in the LP, with her improved lines and classic moves, such as her ina bauer and spread eagle, two things he always raved on about. I actually think he would be most impressed by Mao's EX for these reasons - he would definitely take a liking to her split jumps!!

Interesting discussion! I love hearing your thoughts.

As for Tara, I've always felt that as a commentator, she has this need to speak in a manner that makes her sound as the "authority." Annoying, yes, but at least she is not overly talkative and makes it a point to give even a little bit of praise to anyone who takes the ice. And what I like about her is that she does not obviously show her favorite- unlike Scott Hamilton who's all gushy about Yuna!

Dick Button is a nice guy and I love the fact that he appreciates good line and flexibility. And let's face it, he seems to know what he's talking about, as opposed to some people who just gush about their favorites!

German Eurosport have their moments but sometimes, they border on fan-worship with certain skaters too. But maybe I'll change my mind if I get a full transcript of what they're saying? All I know is that they love Yuna too much!

So far, the British dudes Simon and Chris are my favorites. They are objective, not over-the-top and they certainly know their stuff!

As for the COP system, I like it because it throws a bunch of elements and encourages the formation of an aesthetic program with an idea or coherence to it. People say TAT never really adjusted to the COP system, well I guess I can kind of agree with that. She makes efforts, but her competition programs, while very technically demanding and exquisite, do not move me as much as the exhibition programs she choreographed.

Quote :

That said, I really hope that clean technique will get recognized and encouraged by commentators and coaches... It's sad to see the skaters struggle because in their youth they were taught to jump in a 'flawed' way.

Ah, the problem of the 6.0 babies... Mao is another victim I guess and Machiko Yamada, bless her soul, is a supportive coach but she didn't take the time to fix Mao's flutzing issues. Well, to be fair to her, it's not too much of a problem at the time but now...

I guess all commentators are at least a little biased. I never really noticed that before, unless it was really obvious - like with Scott.

As far as I know the french commentators love Mao very much! I loved their reaction to Mao's olympic SP. Also my Romanian commentators are very appreciative of Mao but I can't really take them seriously, when someone lands a 2A and one of them says it's a 4S But it was nice to hear them at the olys, after Yuna skated her Sp, they weren't sure if she will get first or second, behind Mao and they thought the difference was too high. In the Lp, one of them(not the one with the 4S ) said he thought Mao can win this before her first jump error occurred. It was definitely better than hearing Scott's explanation on why the 3Lz-3T scores better than the 3A-2T because it has more rotations!

For those who can't access the universalsports stream, you can watch their coverage of Mao's FS here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_YvWQuzSuI

They are definitely very supportive throughout. Andrea Joyce said it best at the end, for Mao, it's not about winning the competition but about coming back. I'm glad to hear that they seemed to have enjoyed Mao's performance very much.

As for Tara saying she hasn't noticed any changes in Mao's technique: I think the biggest change Mao made to her Flip is her edges before her take-off. Before, her blade had always rocked to an obvious outside edge before swtiching back to the inside edge just before the take-off. The 'rocking-movement' (pardon my inexpert word usage) is a distinct habit in her flip jumps. Now, the 'rocking-movement' is gone; she holds the inside edge all the way through.

An example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJKhzVHSbMI (at 0:04) - Before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58HTu9iwgrI (at 4:50 - 5:00) - After

or for a clearer version,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4jXbjQL45U (at 4:48)

^Thanks for sharing, snowdrops24!
It's nice to hear they are being positive now.

roma wrote:

^Thanks for sharing, snowdrops24!
It's nice to hear they are being positive now.

Quite true. And I like the fact that they don't seem to exaggerate, meaning they do not make such a big fuss about her 'comeback' but they also don't present too much negativity when talking about Mao's situation.

Thanks for sharing snowdrops24!

I remember these two commentators during worlds 2010!
They were quite supportive!
Even here they genuinely appreciate Mao!
Mao leaves that effect on everyone! - We as fans always knew Mao was going to bounce! As commentators(/ex-skaters) - They've seen this new side of Mao for the very first time - Mao making her comeback was simply so wonderful!
I think that would define this positive attitude! Plus Mao was so adorable on this FP!
Its actually a very complicated program - But Mao skates through it so smoothly that it seem so clean and easy! When it fact its one very difficult long! (They haven't even notice the UR jumps in the prog while commentating )

Let's cut Tara some slack! - I mean - Mao's improvements are quite crucial but not very noticeable...(I mean after few YT vids - we see the change - But I doubt many commentators scrutinize jumps to single details as we do!)
To begin with - Mao is a talented jumper - She had some work to do - But she did it in such a blend that you don't see the over-obvious effort! That's why I love Mao! If it'll be me - I would have never try to rework my basics - and if I would have done em - Maybe the effort would be so obvious that everyone would cringe and tell me - "we forbade you!"
But Mao does her work - corrects her faults - and you can't even spot what was wrong to begin with! I find that really challenging!